IMO it is very favorable because for as many people were oppressed under the iron curtain, not making that alliance would have resulted in hundreds of millions more.
I completely understand why leftists are extremely hostile to Biden, but the scale of the difference between Biden and Trump is so huge that giving in to Biden, whose policy preferences would result in many more people dying, suffering in poverty etc. than a greater progressive, should be the obvious choice right now.
Nobody who is not a Trump supporter disagrees with this. All we’ve disagreed about is the message. And not even that!
And to that end I welcome our ally Boudicca90. But he feels that in this ‘war’, we cannot possibly be both his/her ally and have a compact with groups like the Lincoln project and other anti-Trump conservatives.
Trump voters should be ashamed of themselves.
I am sad to admit that, in 2016, I participated in shaming those who didn’t vote for either.
Now I do get it. Why should someone vote for a party that constantly tells them that their concerns are important to them, and that they will get to them when it is convenient.
I’d still rather that they voted for Biden, but I really can’t take for granted that they will, or even that they should.
Look, if it’s insulting and diminishing your concerns to say that being a real socialist is a completely unrealistic and crazy proposition in today’s American political landscape, then feel free to be insulted, because that’s a fact, not an opinion.
Actual socialism will get NO traction whatsoever in today’s landscape, outside of unrealistic left-wingers. And holding those beliefs and expecting anything material to come of them, even in today’s Democratic party.
Here’s the thing- no party is going to line up with you 100%. That applies to every single voter in the country. Your best bet, in our two party system, is to figure out which one aligns best to you, and vote for their candidates, assuming that said candidates are not too personally odious to vote for. You’re not going to get everything, or anything you want, but chances are you’ll be closer to that than if you’d chosen the other party. Sometimes it’s a situation where you have to hold your nose and choose the lesser of two evils- a lot of people reckoned they were in that position in 2016, for example. I’ve seen it in state level politics too many times to count.
But not voting is just stupid. Full stop. It’s not a protest, as nobody knows you did it, or why you did it. It’s just being petulant. At least if you vote for Democrats and continue to work within the framework of the party, you might be able to get something done. I wouldn’t hold my breath, if I was an actual socialist, but it’s a non-zero chance with the Democrats, unlike the Republicans.
I was only ashamed of my votes when I voted for Kerry in '04 and Obama in '08, believing “the lesser of two evils” was the way to go because of what happened in 2000. And I was right to feel ashamed, as that mentality just gave Republicans free reign to go as far right as possible, because there was no strong leftist opposition party to stop them. IMO, the Democrats weakness, inaction, and lack of vision helped the rise of fascism in the GOP.
If they don’t vote becuase they are still yearning for Bernie, sure.
But if they don’t vote because the democratic party tells them that their concerns are not important to them, that they are fringe and don’t matter, then that’s, while not my optimal preference, entirely understandable.
Our friend Boudicca90 does plan to vote for Biden, in spite of him representing a party that does not represent him. And I thank him for that, and I hope that there are more of him. But I cannot take it for granted that there are that many more that will put the good of others, the comfort and safety of white middle class suburbanites like myself, above their own needs.
This? this right here?
This is how you blow a very winnable election.
Then you agree with me that vote-shaming is sometimes appropriate! We just disagree on which particular votes are shameful.
I think voting for anyone aside from Biden in the upcoming election is shameful, because there are immediate threats to a variety of people if Trump wins – threats to migrants, people of color, poor people, LGBTQ people, and more. They can’t wait for a better Democratic party – they need Trump to be defeated NOW.
I am voting for Biden. Mostly because I think Trump is terrible.
Unfortunately, there are a lot of fragile easily scared white suburbanites and a lot of them watch Fox News and live in states with a disproportionate number of electoral college votes.
Well, I said I would vote for Biden if I still lived in a swing state. Here in CA, i’m free to vote for Hawkins, since I feel it’s more important to show leftist unity right now. And my pronouns are she/her.
Wait. The GOP vowed to make Obama a one term president on day one. You think a more left leaning president would have made the difference? You may as well claim a less black president would have lead to a better outcome. The fault lies entirely with the GOP not the Democrats.
Yeah, this is what I don’t understand. So to the “socialists” and “Bernie bros”, is the feeling that they will only vote for Bernie Sanders or some other socialist? Or do they look at whoever is running and decide that Party A’s policies are more in line with their beliefs than Party B?
As a poor LGBTQ person, I want Biden to defeat Trump, but i’m also going to fight for a better Democratic party that actually represents me at the same time. The two are not incompatible, especially since Biden keeps distancing himself from us, protecting himself from being associated with us dangerous leftists. 
So, there have been no calls for the protesters to stop protesting, no calls that they should change their message?
I thought that that was what this thread was all about.
And yet she did say that she was planning on voting for Biden, in spite of that.
And here we are, heaping abuse and insults on her because she has reservations.
That’s not how we win elections. That’s how we divide ourselves and let the opposition destroy the remnants.
And no matter the message that is put out by democrats, the only message they will hear is that put out by Fox.
Why should we cater to a population that will never hear us?
Yes I do, because Obama was a pushover. He was so concerned with “bipartisanship” at a time when they wanted to burn him in effigy.
The thing Dems have to realize is that the Repubs will call us radical socialists no matter what. Hell, they are trying to do that with Biden right now! He should have stuck to a progressive agenda and said screw the Republicans, especially in the first two years of his Presidency when we still had a Dem majority in Congress.
That’s why while I voted for him in 2008, I voted Jill Stein in 2012 because I was sick of his constant capitulation.
So first of all I agree that strategically it makes very little sense for me to vote shame leftists. I don’t think their rationale makes sense, but the more emotional I make it, the more I turn my position into us vs. them and lose the person I’m trying to convince.
The view that “the party is duplicitous or makes me feel unwelcome so I’m voting third party” makes so little sense, especially from leftists. Politics is a dirty game and you should basically look at everything from every politician with distrust. Especially for leftists - they think that their views are fundamentally incompatible with capitalism. Obviously capitalists are going to screw them over. Everyone knew this going in, before Sanders even announced his campaign. Anyone who genuinely had getting screwed over by the system as a dealbreaker, didn’t need to bother caring about Sanders in the first place. I don’t think this is a valid reason to choose a capitalist party that at least won’t trample over your right to protest, vote etc., and won’t try to screw the poor nearly as much as the other capitalist party. And on the protest issue, obviously there are local Democratic mayors who have been supporting the police for years in spite of their brutality, but the scale between them and Trumpists is not even comparable.
For anyone who votes third party from the perspective of being further to the left than the democrats, it should be with the view that the democrats losing because you split the vote will help your political aims in the long run. I actually did this in 2012 (although I lived in Massachusetts so it really didn’t matter). If you do this, and the Republicans win, you got what you wanted. Anyone who made this choice needs to own the consequences - right-wingers winning to further their long-term left-wing views is the plan.
I would prefer that you vote for Biden in order to shore up even the popular vote, as everything’s going to end up mattering in this election, but I respect your choice.
My deepest apologies for my mistake
Ultimately it comes down to whether you want to win elections or you want to be “right”.
But there is a middle.
As a capitalist business owner who profits off the labor of others, who is currently sitting in a chair bullshitting online while a dozen people make me money, I am in favor of a UBI. Odd that, huh?
I do not think that capitalism is a very good method for distributing necessities, even if it is the best system for meeting wants.