Zoe If my broad brush doesn’t apply to people then it wasn’t painting them, therefore my broad brush only covered those that it needed to, and maybe wasn’t as broad as you’re painting it. I do see a lot of “confirmation bias” on these boards. Mostly what I see is people happily dismissing the words of ANYONE who says there are possibly WMDs in Syria as being not credible. I happen to believe that it is highly plausible that Saddam moved them to Syria. People believe what they want to believe, pretty consistently, I like to challenge that. I see opinion bandied as fact in these arguments I get in all the time, and if your opinion jives with the status quo of the particular thread, then it’s accepted as being the more ‘rational’, regardless of the fact that its merely one opinion. I simply do not think that this message board is quite as high brow as people like to think it is.
What Exit? It’s amazing to me that on a message board that vaunts itself as a bastion of intellectualism that me stating that one combatant is no better or worse than the combatant on the other side, is a controversial opinion. Philosophers have been writing about this stuff for years. It’s not like America doesn’t use psy-war to terrorize it’s enemies. If you need to convince yourself of moral supremacy in order to fight the war, then maybe you need to reevaluate the reasons why you fight, because there is no moral supremacy.
It’s a delusion that most people labor under when supporting a war. “My side is the good guys, the other side is the bad guys.”, I think every side in every war has thought that. Hell Al Qaeda thinks that, what makes you right and them wrong? You say, “But Terrorists blow up civilians with suicide bombs.”, my response is “And America blows up civilians with Cruise missiles.”, you say “But we don’t specifically target civilians like they do.”, and I say, “And yet we’ve killed a lot more civilians than they have.”
It’s the same kind of delusion the aristocrats labored under in older wars. It’s that the side that is able to keep their clothes the cleanest are the morally superior ones because they are fighting against dirty heathens. Technological supremacy doesn’t equal moral supremacy. Just because a dandy kills a man with a musket from horseback while his enemy pops out of the woods with a cudgel doesn’t make the man with the musket a better person, even though that’s how it is sold back home. More CIVILIANS were killed in the first 6 months in Afghanistan than were killed on September Eleventh. I’m pretty certain that the other side lives in terror of an enemy that can send bombs flying in unmanned drones from thousands of miles away.
I’m sorry, you’re not morally superior to the enemy by virtue of being more organized.
Okay so all military personal and Terrorist and freedom fires are equivalent in your book. As an Ex-Vet who has never shot or hurt anyone, I am as bad a person as the terrorist who blows up Weddings and passenger trains.
This is what you want me to accept. Than I say to you that you are just as responsible for the bomb that hit the wrong target during the war in Afghanistan as you failed to keep it from being made.
But let’s look at some of the lines in your quote that you didn’t Bold:
*No senior Iraqi official interviewed by the ISG believed that Saddam had forsaken WMD forever. *
Iraq had no deployable WMD of any kind as of March 2003 and had no production since 1991.
The ISG judged that in March 2003, Iraq would have had the ability to produce large quantities of Sulfur Mustard in 3-6 months, and large quantities of nerve agent in 2 years
Iraq had intended to restart all banned weapons programs as soon as multilateral sanctions against it had been dropped, a prospect that the Iraqi government saw coming soon.
*
Smuggling was used by Iraq to rebuild as much of its WMD program as could be hidden from U.N. weapons inspectors*.
Iraq had an effective system for the procurement of items banned by sanctions.
*Until March 2003, Saddam Hussein convinced his top military commanders that Iraq did indeed possess WMD * that could be used against any U.S. invasion force, in order to prevent a coup over the prospects of fighting the U.S.-led Coalition without these weapons.
Thus, like I said- the definate possibility exists that SH was starting a new WMD program (likely more gas). And that the fruits of that- plus the evidence for it- could well have been moved to Syria. *Something * was moved clandestinely to Syria. SH had the motive, means & opportunity. He claimed he had the stuff. Israeli Intel said the stuff was moved to Syria (and it seems like their Intel is better than ours in some areas). This new piece of evidence isn’t all that convincing all by itself, true.
However still- even if there were a plane load and two truck loads of WMD (and the evidence there-of)- that still wouldn’t make SH a credible ‘clear & present danger" to the USA. It seems like what SH was wroking on was Gas- which I’d be worried about if I was a Kurd, not an American. Nukes? Yes, if SH had nearly had Nukes, then we would probably have had cause. But there was absolutely no evidence AT ALL that SH was close to nukes. Some evidence that he hadn’t given up on the idea- sure. But that does not a Nuke make. Thus, even though I am willing to bet on the strong possibility of a few tonnes of crap shipped to Syria, that still doesn’t give us the "clear and present danger’ right to invade a sovereign nation. We have far more cause to move on Iran than we did on Iraq.
In any case- on the threat of force (which we had every right to make, even Blix said as much) Saddam let Blix & co in. We should have let them do their job. There was absolutely no reason to invade after that- even *if * Blix had found the “smoking gun” like invoices of shipments of WMDs to Syria.
Except that I never supported it’s manufacture knowingly, and I have resisted it’s manufacture by putting my energy toward other pursuits, as well as I have spoken out against the war since 9.12.2001, I made sure that every time I heard people talk shit about Arabs that I didn’t let that slide because I was afraid that people would lash out at Arabs unecessarily, as has happened. It didn’t come in teh form of angry mobs in America, and there were only a couple isolated incidents like that Sikh who was killed in Arizona.
Airman Doors is a member of the National Guard, the National Guard is supposed to guard us here in America, I do not believe that there is a credible threat from terrorism. I believe that 9.11 was pretty much the best that they had, and they’ve been milking it ever since. I’m relatively supportive of the war in Afghanistan, and I would have been supportive of fixing one country rather than wasting resources by fighting a war in two. However, I don’t support the war in Afghanistan because I think my side is morally superior, I support it because I know which side I’m on and morality is not a necessary factor in my decision making. I support if because, “You don’t fuck with America.”, but by the same token, I feel that in order to take that “You don’t fuck with America” stance we should be a lot more reserved with our projection of military might than we have been. I think that unfortunately any moral legitimacy we might have had has been used up by politicians that have been using the military as a brute squad for American big business, and now we have to go beat down some people who have it far worse than we do in order to ‘terrorize’ them into not attacking us again.
The American military is used for immoral agendas, period. If you are a part of that apparatus, you are part of those immoral agendas, and thus responsible for them. I am against the way our military is used, and I do what I can within my power to stop it’s being used that way, so I am not responsible for it in the same way as someone who voluntarily joins that apparatus.
You can say that we don’t blow up civilians in pizza parlors, and I can say they don’t destabilize third world economies to increase stock value. No moral superiority there, and the soldier on the ground is the one wielding the hammer, so ultimately he’s responsible for driving the nail into the coffin. Without soldiers willing to fight, politicians cannot execute evil agendas, it’s that simple.
I don’t need to believe my side is morally superior to the enemy in order to know which side I’m on in a conflict.
To be fair, the Sesame Street song “Which of these things are not like the others, which of these things are not the same?” still gives him immense trouble.
No, got out a year before Desert Storm and I was Navy. But the Ship I was on and maintained was in the Gulf and launching Navy Fighters. Seems like I must be just as guilty as Airman Doors.
Did Airman Doors do any of that? I know I didn’t. I also reminded people that now all Arabs are to be blamed. I did have to be vocal about this as I heard the send all those darn foreigners type speech coming from people I knew.
If you want me to agree that the Bush Administrations and other past Administrations has used our military for impure reasons, I will agree.
I cannot agree this makes the average military member the moral equivalent of a terrorist. When you join the military or National Guard you are placing a trust in your government. You are standing by your government. There is a honor to this. You are expecting to possibly become involved in war. Hopefully a just war that you can believe in. You don’t expect to be asked to be a suicide bomber or to shoot up a wedding or blow up a bus of civilians.
A terrorist is expected to wage war on civilians. Maybe the difference is small but it is there and it is about honor. If asked to open fire on civilians I would say no and take my chances on a court martial. If asked to repair a generator so they could launch the jets to fly a mission, I go along with it, in much the same way a Power plant operator would provide power to the factory that makes the jet or the bomb. I might share some guilt in civilian deaths but so would anyone in the US that contributes in anyway to the war effort. Do you actually work as an employee of an anti-war /peace group. If so, I will absolve you of all guilt. If not, consider what you do for a living. Maybe you did help in someway.
Meanwhile get off **Airman Doors ** back. He is doing a service for our country, not spreading terror. **I thank him for his service ** and I hope he is never put in a situation where he has to help kill an innocent.
I have no clue what his job is except that I doubt it involves shooting and it can’t involve flying a jet.
Personally, yes, I would like to see some corroboration.
However, I find it interesting that all this time, people have said Saddam did not have WMDs and that Bush lied about them. Now we have someone who, if taken at face value, appears to have been in a position to know what happened to the WMDs. And lo and behold - he gets dismissed out of hand because “he’s just a guy writing a book” or “he was an officer in a corrupt military and has no credibility” and other statements of similar effect.
Let’s assume he’s right. Will the people who have yelled so loud for so long retract their statements? Crow eating (with or without mustard or cream gravy) is optional. It’s an interesting conundrum, isn’t it?
One would hope that the first reaction would be to disestablish the CIA, since it would have then been proved wrong twice: first that Saddam had WMD, which the war could not uncover; second that it had concluded after the war that Saddam did not have any WMD; which would be contradicted by the unlikely scenario you posit. Then there can be time for admission of being wrong.
So, speaking of being wrong, how much evidence do you need piled up before you admit that there were no WMD in Iraq that threatened America? How many more thorough government investigations do you need to reach the conclusion that they have all reached?
Well, now I see why it took you so long to come back to this thread, you were out gathering straw. Wouldn’t it be more… oh, I don’t know… honest, to state that the objections were that he’s a known liar publishing for a group that doesn’t care if their authors are liars and that he only announced this “bombshell” once he stood to make money off of it?
Then I must say you have very strange and pointless interests. For fuck’s sake, read the fucking article you linked to. Despite the frequent use of the term ‘WMDs’ in the story (would that be chemical, biological or nuclear? Mr. Sada never once says), at no point does Sada state a) that he has seen one of these weapons himself b) described an actual weapon of any type as being transported to Syria and c) indicated that he knew of such weapons existing prior to being told this vague and unverifiable story by his anonymous pilot friends.
Since you apparently cannot figure this out for yourself, I gently remind you that drums of unknown chemicals are not generally considered weapons of any kind, and there is no verifiable evidence in your linked article that even these mysterious drums existed. People are dismissing Mr. Sada because his story is completely devoid of verifiable fact, not on political grounds.
Christ on a saltine, is that the only fucking thing you are concerned about here? Sure, I’ll be first in line to say I was wrong. Now, ask the other question: does that justify the invasion? I’ll be happy to answer that, whenever you are ready to ask.
You maintained the apparatus of the killing machine that was used to prosecute imperialist foreign policy.
Well it’s good that you reminded people of that. See here’s the rub of what I am saying. I am not holding ill will against Airman Doors, but I don’t honor what he is doing, I don’t support what he is doing and I am certainly not going to praise an action that I see as totally misguided. I don’t care if he’s operating comm equipment, without that comm equipment the military wouldn’t be able to function, so he is playing a vital role in the killing machine and therefore is complicit in the death dealing that is being done in the Middle East. He’s making a choice, I do not believe that he is protecting me, I would be under less threat if there were no US soldiers in the middle east, it’s as simple as that, he is endangering me by fighting in this war, so he is going against my best interests, therefore I cannot possibly do anything other than oppose his actions.
All that tells me is that Airman Doors is on the organizationally superior side. The British army that had superior organization over the American revolutionaries also found the tactics of the guerillas to be contemptible, it’s the same old story, the colonizing force looks down on the ‘savage’ force for not fighting by the rules of war that benefit the army of the dominating imperial entity. The terrorists are fighting that way because they have no other way to fight. They ARE defending their homeland whereas Airman Doors is PRETENDING to defend his Homeland. They are in fact more honorable than he is, because their Homeland is under threat from an imperialist aggressor, Airman Doors’ homeland would not be under threat if there were no American Imperialist presence in the middle east on a holy Crusade to force Americanism on the Middle East. You can hide behind the semantic concept of not ‘targetting’ civilians but the result is the same, civilians are killed, and we are killing more civilians than they are, so it doesn’t really matter whether you are specifically targetting them or not.
A terrorist fights with the tools available to him, as he does not have the luxury of multimillion dollar rockets and guidance systems to hide behind, and cannot look down on the enemy from a satellite.
He is not doing the country a service, he is doing the country a disservice. Watch when Iraq gets stabilized as American jobs are shipped overseas to cheaper Iraqi employees. Wait until he gets back and his pension is almost nothing because the people he truly is benefitting, the corporate special interests will be done with him, after the United States is bankrupted because of this war, the corporations will happily be hiring mercenaries to protect their interests as national armies are neutered. They can’t afford to rebuild New Orleans properly, but they can afford to have Airman Doors securing oil fields in Iraq. He thinks he’s doing it for America but he’s doing it for corporations that have no further interest than their bottom line.
Airman Doors should be of the appropriate age that he can see all the forgotten soldiers from Vietnam out there forgotten by their country after our last protracted war of Imperialist aggression. This time however it’s going to be even worse on veterans. The corporations he’s fighting for are even cutting pensions left and right.
The enemy isn’t in Iraq it’s in Washington DC. He can give me a call when he wants to march on the real enemy, and then I’ll think he’s honorable and we’ll hook up. Until then I’ll just sit here online doing whatever damage to the morale of any soldier that reads what I have to say that I possibly can. Look at me I’m a combatant, I can use psy war from the comfort of my own home just like the US Government and the Terrorists do!
I am involved in peace movements by the way just so you know. Of course I am not naive enough not to realize that I exist within the economy of the Military Industrial Complex, and there’s not a whole lot that I can do about that in the short enough term to affect change that will stop this current war, but I can work to destroy the illusions that people have about the honor of what they are doing, so that this type of event does not occur in the future.
Without soldiers George W Bush cannot prosecute his imperialist agendas.
Erek:
I will be brief.
I disagree with this war because of the way we justufued it and executed it and failed to go through the UN. However I honor every soldier that serves honorable.
It was not their fault the war has gone the way it has.
I do not consider the USA to be imperialistic, Hyper Capitolistic but not imperialistic.
Iraq did need a change of rulership. Saddam was rotten. He couldn’t be voted out. I wanted the UN to work together to force him out but instead Bush & Cheney Cowboyed it and embarressed us all.
Our corrupt idiots will at least be out of power in 3 more years. Maybe the World Court will want to try Bush as a war criminal. I doubt it, but more power to them if they want to try.
None of this will allow me to equate a honorable serving soldier with a terrorist. Sorry.
BTW: You didn’t say what industry you work in.
I don’t work in an ‘industry’ I do multiple different things. I run a media technology consulting service. I have an event promotions company in New York and Chicago, I do some stuff in the entertainment industry, and I organize my own local community, which includes a lot of activism. Right now I am working on the “International Pirates Conference” which is a conference dedicated to getting people off of a centralized power structure system. (Don’t worry the word Pirate is just a theme, we’re not gonna be raiding boats.) It’s going to be dedicated toward building an autonomous syndicalized structure that will help people deal with true globalization. The premise is that we want to build a completely working temporary city, we’re looking at Vieques off the coast of Puerto Rico as the site. The first one is this year but it’s going to be really small, mainly gathering the organizers for a bigger one next year. I plan to work on the Elliot Spitzer Gubernatorial campaign cuz I’d like to see a Governor that’s not afraid to take on corrupt businessmen. The way my media consultancy works is we basically have a network of professionals that help each other get work, and we provide the corporate face for them, and give them support like reception and bookkeeping so that they can take on jobs that would be bigger than they could handle alone. We worked on one project www.evolvetv.tv but the funding on that didn’t work out, so it never made it past the pilot. So we’ve got some streaming media servers that aren’t living up to their potential, so we want to work with universities and setup a journalism guild structure, we’ve got some connections to some Deans of Universities all across the country.
You are welcome to villify terrorists all you want, to me they are just people fighting a war, and it’s not my war, I’m not on either side of it. Airman Doors ain’t fighting for me nor is he fighting against me, same as Osama bin Laden. I am neutral in that conflict as far as picking a side goes, the only vested interest I have there is that the war end because it makes it harder for me to travel as an American, I am in more danger abroad than I was before 2001 and the danger level at home hasn’t changed.
Something that might interest you is the difference with which how different classes in this country view this war. I heard some black kids on the train comparing Osama bin Laden to William Wallace, and right after 9/11 when all the patriotic fervor was in full effect, some of my black friends were booing the “white man’s lies”. A friend of mine said he was in a barber shop shortly after 9/11 and everyone in there was talking about what bullshit was spewing from Bush’s mouth about it. I think it’s a war of the white overclass against the colored underclass on a global scale, and that’s a conflict I’m not down with.
I guess to truly understand how I feel about this, you’d have to recognize that I’m not on your side. I’m not against America, don’t misconstrue it that way, but I was born from western pioneer stock, and that’s what’s in my blood, keep your Yankee federalism out of my business. I’m not against you but I’m certainly not with you on this. I’m out to complete the work the founding fathers started, but Airman Doors’ bosses over at Halliburton are not a part of my vision.
I feel like it needs to be said though that I won’t pick up a gun until one is picked up and pointed at me. I’ll continue to use the hippy tactics…as long as they prove effective. I too have dedicated my life to fighting the war on terror, regardless of which nation is funding the terrorists.