You’re right, I must have typed in an extra zero. (You’re also wrong: I incorrectly stated that 12,190/119,400,000 = 1.2^-5, rather than 1.2^-4, and THEN I multiplied by 100, putting me off by a factor of 10, not a factor of 1000: my end figure was 0.001, when it should have been 0.01.) Even so, .01% is a pretty low rate, especially given that the figures I used in my calculations almost certainly yielded a figure that is vastly, vastly inflated over the actual per-capita rate of false accusations of combined rape/sexual assault.
I suppose that accusations would not make my day go all that much better, so I am not unconcerned about them.
Which is why I would conduct myself in a way such as to minimize the possibility of same.
Now, in minimizing the chances of getting accused, I think that it also would decrease the “threat” that I pose to others, and make strangers less uncomfortable with my presence.
Win-win.
I’m a third grade teacher. A couple of weeks ago, a female teacher brought a boy to me who needed help with his belt. She was uncomfortable helping him, so she stayed and watched me help him. NBD.
Would I tuck in a kid’s shirt? Nope. Would I do it without another adult around? Oh hell no. Again, no big deal.
No, he wouldn’t be. That’s absurd.
Your example of why men should be concerned is that
- An accusation was made.
- The police investigated.
- They found that there was no problem.
Speculation about how if you watched another game in that city you’d be in trouble is very silly. No, you wouldn’t be in trouble. They found that there was no problem!
People are imagining all sorts of terrible circumstances, and when they’re called out for the silliness of them, you’re like “NO BUT WAIT THE POLICE APOLOGIZED TO ME AND THE COMPLAINT WAS WITHDRAWN.” I really don’t see how that supports the idea that men are in trouble here.
…its insulting to conflate the whole “sexual accusation thing” with the “sitting next to a girl in the theatre” thing. As I said earlier in the thread:
Ya see? This is how the whole empathy thing works.
Hey: I’m a male too! Its all about me as well!
Why are you asking me these questions? You do you. There is no “set of rules” that will ensure you will navigate every situation in life without upsetting somebody else. There is no magic checklist.
Of course you are allowed to ask these questions. You’ve just asked those questions. But I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting for a definitive answer.
I try to be aware of people’s space, too. I don’t stand too close. I don’t sit close when there are other options. I don’t touch people for no reason. I don’t stare. I don’t talk really loudly. I don’t ask personal questions. And on and on. This is partly for me (I don’t want to be that close to people) and partly for other people (they don’t want me scrunched up next to them either).
But I wouldn’t tend to move if I’m somewhere first. And if seats are scarce, for example on the train, I will sit next to someone, and I expect someone to sit next to me. (If seats are plentiful, it’s fucking weird to sit right next to someone. But people do it. Gah.)
I am absolutely opposed to any attempt to shame you out of the public sphere, or make it seem like you have no right to go to a movie and just enjoy yourself. If I know someone has an irrational fear, I won’t deliberately trigger it, but I will live my life. I won’t force my husband (who is afraid of flying) to watch movies about plane crashes, but I will fly somewhere if it makes sense. (I don’t think my getting on a plane bothers him, actually, so this is a bad analogy. And I don’t tend to watch movies with plane crashes. This is for illustrative purposes only!)
The OP explained how in the context of the recent sexual stuff in the media, innocent men are no longer safe. That’s the takeaway after months of hearing long-buried personal accounts of victims. It’s a perspective in my book, and I appreciate knowing who has it.
I agree with that on a couple of levels. Some parents can be virulently and stupidly anti-perv to the point of being harmful. (Don’t go past the end of the street, bad men will steal you! - one mother’s words.) Some parents will do it strategically like in custody cases. Both kinds of people are acting with complete moral certainty and thinking only of the children. Yeah, that’s a problem.
This is fairly close to what I’ve seen, although I’ve seen the figure of 8% false accusations used, so the result was a 1 in 12 rate of false accusations to reported rapes. (The rate compared to actual rapes and not just reported ones is going to be much lower of course).
But if we cut the number of rapes by a factor of 12, would we then feel it was acceptable to dismiss women’s fear of rape or strangers? Tell them to just get over it? I think not.
People keep trying to remove context. We shouldn’t do that. If a woman wrote an analogous OP, about her fear that the guy sitting next to her in the theater were going to rape her right there, it’d be fair to tell her the fear was unreasonable. (Note that if she were afraid he’d molest her in the theater, that might be more reasonable–but I’m having trouble Googling any stats on this sort of crime, due to a movie theater that recently shut down because of sexual assault by management, and Stranger Things star firing agent over sexual assault; maybe you’ve got better Google fu than I have).
You are absolutely correct about the specific situation in the theatre. The odds would seem to be so low that if you were to go around concerned about such odds you would never dare get in a car. It is well into “groundless worry” territory.
I was replying to the notion that worry about false accusations in general are unreasonable. A false accusation can ruin lives, and is 1 / 12th of the number of reported rapes low enough that worrying about it is unreasonable?
Of course, women’s situation are much worse. But that does not alter whether it is a realistic worry or not.
This is my perspective almost exactly. The stock phrase should be altered a bit: “A woman’s worst fear is that she will be killed. A man’s worst fear is that he will be put into prison for years based on a completely fabricated occurrence.” As a matter of fact, getting law enforcement up in your face about why you’re in a certain place is a bit more serious than being “laughed at” as the phrase goes.
While I therefore think the possible severity is high in both cases, their occurrence is at least an order of magnitude less for men (Looking at false accusations only. Men of course can be abused as well.)
[quote=“Tee, post:186, topic:803295”]
The OP explained how in the context of the recent sexual stuff in the media, innocent men are no longer safe. That’s the takeaway after months of hearing long-buried personal accounts of victims. It’s a perspective in my book, and I appreciate knowing who has it./QUOTE]
Hearing long-buried personal accounts of victims leads to thinking innocent men are no longer safe?
So, yeah. Getting law enforcement asking you questions can be serious. But even then, there’s a spectrum. On one end is law enforcement drawing weapons, shouting at you, calling in a dozen cars. On the other end is law enforcement approaching you quietly and respectfully, telling you that they have to investigate every call, and assuring you that everything is all right as they leave. The incidents we’ve heard about in this thread involve the latter end of the spectrum, and again, I have a hard time worrying too much about it. If it happened to me, it’d shake me up no question–but it’s not anywhere in the same ballpark as an assault.
Maybe it’s about as disturbing as multiple cat calls at a single woman walking alone past a group of men?
Has anyone expressed that notion in this thread? Honest question.
This thread prompted me to revisit the history of the Duke Lacrosse accusations, the quintessential “false accusations ruin lives” story. And those were some scary, messed up allegations. And maybe they should frighten me.
But I’ll be honest, I’m not personally worried about that sort of thing, because I don’t try to hire white strippers and then make awful comments to the nonwhite women that show up, including brandishing a broom handle with suggestions about how it could be used and shouting racial epithets at the women and afterward sending an email about calling more strippers, murdering them, and flaying them. Sure, this may come across as, “They came for the douchebag frat boys, and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a douchebag frat boy.” But I’ll be honest, not being a douchebag frat boy is pretty central to my self-image, and it’s hard for me to worry about myself based on their plight.
False accusations against teachers occur, rarely. I think I worry about them to the correct degree: I don’t give students rides home in my car, I don’t spend time alone in a room with individual students, I’m very careful about how I touch students. I take sensible precautions in keeping with district policy. Yes, a false accusation could still technically occur–but they’re rare enough that I worry more about things like car accidents and heart disease and our terrible president, things that present a much greater and more realistic threat to my way of life.
There are always some kids who suffer from this sort of deprivation. But this notion that it might be a more widespread phenomenon today than it has been in the past is utterly without foundation, AFAICT.
Again I’ll talk from personal experience. Last week I sat in on a lesson for third graders on safe touch, given by someone from a local organization that works on sexual violence issues. It was a professional, age-appropriate presentation, that talked about touch in a sophisticated way: there’s welcome friendly touch, unwelcome friendly touch, unfriendly touch (shoves, punches, etc.), and inappropriate touch (bathing suit area being the age-appropriate metric here). Students discussed appropriate responses to each kind of touch.
I don’t know if this is the sort of social warning system that’s everywhere, but there was nothing in the presentation that made me think your concerns are valid. Nor does my daily experience with children make me think the concerns hold water.
I agree with this even given the “stranger danger” paranoia around still today. In the past century there have been times where it was considered pampering to be affectionate to even your own children, and their feelings in general are also more respected these days instead of being told what to do %100 of the time.
That is the entirety of the OP. This whole sexual accusation thing –> a perspective I’ve not heard discussed ----> I could be ruined at any time ----> no man is safe. From my POV that is very insulting and I think it’s good to know who is out there promoting this line of thinking. From his POV the existence of whatever small number of false accusations makes it valid.
Bolding mine.
I don’t know what the percentage of false accusations is, but yeah it happens, and it can change your outlook to one of a nagging fear. Another anecdote: when I first started dating my girlfriend, one of her daughters didn’t take to me. I had asked her to do some chores around the house like cleaning her room or cleaning up messes that she had made. One day I got a call from her Grandmother saying that the daughter had accused me of binding her to a chair, groping her, and then physically beating her. After everyone got involved, she finally broke down and confessed it was a lie. But I can assure you that before the admission was made the entire family cross-examined me, my girlfriend included. I thought my life was over at that point, I really did.
Someone mentioned upthread that a six year old has no concept of sexual assault and wouldn’t make accusations in the first place. Well, a nine-year old certainly understood the concept, if not the underlying ramifications of it. It shook me up and still shakes me up when I think about what could have happened. Like I said, I don’t know what the % of false accusations is, but there is a % of accusations made that get settled before it becomes a statistic.
I’m with you pretty much in this thread, but I don’t see much difference between your exercising precautions and MMM’s contemplating taking precautions in a movie theater. Why is one “sensible” and the other “irrational?”
I am a bit perplexed with MMM’s timing. The stranger danger thing has been around for ages. I don’t see much connection between that and the current sexual harassment stuff.
Also, there’s a whole host of assholes who think gay people are after their children. I don’t think it’s irrational at all to want to stay away from strange children.
I think the timing is in that stories of sexual assault are more likely to be believed. In the not so distant past, an accusation (true or false) could be just brushed off. A false accusation would be annoying and inconvenient, but not a life destroying event.
With people’s lives being destroyed by credible allegations, it is worth considering whether your life could be destroyed by a false allegation as well.
There are times and places where I do think that this could be a bit of a concern, but public places like theaters and parks are not, IMHO, one of those.