This whole sexual accusation thing – a perspective I’ve not heard discussed

[Spice_Weasel]

@Biffster

That’s the problem with this whole movement is it seems to be taking the spontaneity out of human relationships. I am in NO WAY defending sexual assault, by the way. But what happens next? Is flirtation dead in the water?

I just want you to understand the way I hear this. The way many people who have been through this hear it. And it’s not just you saying it - I’ve heard it a million times before, I’m just using it as an example. This is not intended as a personal attack. When you say this, I hear:

“Sexual assault is wrong, sure.
But talking about it openly leads to bad things.
I’m afraid of living in a world where we talk openly about sexual assault.”

Now, that might not be what you mean, but it’s basically the message being broacast.

This entire thread is more or less a collective message to survivors that says, ''STFU, you are stressing us, innocent men, out."

I’m open to alternate explanations.

Having been in a life-ruining situation where the truth was not believed, I get where that fear comes from. Reputation takes a lot of effort to earn and, it often seems, only a very little bit to destroy. But even in that moment, when the reputation of 17 year-old-me was on the line, I stood on the side of truth. I stood on the side of truth because I was tired of seeing my family sweep sexual abuse under the rug. I did so at great personal cost, the cost of broken relationships, of losing my stepsiblings forever, of being an ongoing target for abuse, harrassment and pressure, but I kept the one thing that mattered the most, and that is my integrity. I was no longer going to just let things happen to other people and not speak up about it. And that is why I am a little advocacy thorn in the SDMB’s side, because that decision is literally how I survived what I can only describe as a hellstorm of injustice that permanently altered my view of human nature. This is not ever going to happen to another person as long as I can help it.

As I see it, we have to make a decision about whether we would rather protect people (all people, of all ages and genders) from abuse, or whether we would like to ensure that nobody in the history of ever is falsely accused. Right now I believe that we live in a society that, with the possible exception of some high-profile cases in the media, overwhelmingly favors the accused. I believe that because through my work at a domestic violence and sexual assault services organization, I see survivors every day being handheld through the process of coming to terms with the fact they will never, ever see justice. I see thousands of rape kits languishing in Detroit police departments while the perpetrators rack up even more rapes until they are caught. I see the Baltimore police referring to SVU as ‘‘The Lying Bitch Unit.’’ I’ve also seen shit that I’m not allowed to talk about that makes me want to throw up even knowing it happened.

People, including me, that speak openly about our experiences, do so because we don’t want to live in that society anymore. The pushback we’re getting seems to be coming overwhelmingly from people who can’t relate to, or for some reason refuse to understand where we’re coming from. This is not a hypothetical nightmare ‘‘what if’’ scenario. The Worst Case Scenario already happened to us, and we are being told, either explicitly or implicitly through nervous hand-wringing, to shut up about it. We are being told that speaking out against the status quo is not worth the cost to men.

It hurts.

[Ulfreida]

@Spice_Weasel

I just want you to understand the way I hear this. The way many people who have been through this hear it. And it’s not just you saying it - I’ve heard it a million times before, I’m just using it as an example. This is not intended as a personal attack. When you say this, I hear:

“Sexual assault is wrong, sure.
But talking about it openly leads to bad things.
I’m afraid of living in a world where we talk openly about sexual assault.”

Now, that might not be what you mean, but it’s basically the message being broacast.

This entire thread is more or less a collective message to survivors that says, ''STFU, you are stressing us, innocent men, out."

I’m open to alternate explanations.

Having been in a life-ruining situation where the truth was not believed, I get where that fear comes from. Reputation takes a lot of effort to earn and, it often seems, only a very little bit to destroy. But even in that moment, when the reputation of 17 year-old-me was on the line, I stood on the side of truth. I stood on the side of truth because I was tired of seeing my family sweep sexual abuse under the rug. I did so at great personal cost, the cost of broken relationships, of losing my stepsiblings forever, of being an ongoing target for abuse, harrassment and pressure, but I kept the one thing that mattered the most, and that is my integrity. I was no longer going to just let things happen to other people and not speak up about it. And that is why I am a little advocacy thorn in the SDMB’s side, because that decision is literally how I survived what I can only describe as a hellstorm of injustice that permanently altered my view of human nature. This is not ever going to happen to another person as long as I can help it.

As I see it, we have to make a decision about whether we would rather protect people (all people, of all ages and genders) from abuse, or whether we would like to ensure that nobody in the history of ever is falsely accused. Right now I believe that we live in a society that, with the possible exception of some high-profile cases in the media, overwhelmingly favors the accused. I believe that because through my work at a domestic violence and sexual assault services organization, I see survivors every day being handheld through the process of coming to terms with the fact they will never, ever see justice. I see thousands of rape kits languishing in Detroit police departments while the perpetrators rack up even more rapes until they are caught. I see the Baltimore police referring to SVU as ‘‘The Lying Bitch Unit.’’ I’ve also seen shit that I’m not allowed to talk about that makes me want to throw up even knowing it happened.

People, including me, that speak openly about our experiences, do so because we don’t want to live in that society anymore. The pushback we’re getting seems to be coming overwhelmingly from people who can’t relate to, or for some reason refuse to understand where we’re coming from. This is not a hypothetical nightmare ‘‘what if’’ scenario. The Worst Case Scenario already happened to us, and we are being told, either explicitly or implicitly through nervous hand-wringing, to shut up about it. We are being told that speaking out against the status quo is not worth the cost to men.

It hurts.

Gold stars to you.

[Banquet_Bear]

…kia kaha Spice Weasel.

[Mijin]

@Banquet_Bear

…well duh.

He said a grope and rape or child abuse are not the same thing. Thank fuck for Matt Damon! Where would we be without him to explain to all the women that not only a grope and rape or child abuse are not the same thing, but** they are both wrong!**

I’m so glad that Matt Damon has constructively added his take to the issue. All those women can sleep easy now. Damon has spoken!!!

What Matt Damon said was fucking tone deaf. There may be a difference in scale between a grope and assualt. But as Milano also says: “There are different stages of cancer. Some more treatable than others. But it’s still cancer.”

So first you declined to say what Matt was being chastized for, and now you’re sarcastically saying that was he said was correct, but obvious.

You know what I do when someone says something obvious? I say “OK, go on…”. If their only point is an obvious one then we might do as you did and say “Well, duh”.

But at no point does it become worthy of chastisement in itself.
I think this is an example of how some are becoming somewhat hysterical over this, and it’s not helpful.

[Banquet_Bear]

@Mijin

So first you declined to say what Matt was being chastized for,

…decline? Nobody asked me to explain why Damon was “chastised.” I posted to correct the mis-characterization of Alyssa Milano’s position. And I did that by posting exactly what Milano said. So if you want to know why Matt got “chastised” then I suggest you read what she has to say. It doesn’t surprise me though that you managed to miss what Milano said because part of the problem is that people are not listening to what women have to say.

and now you’re sarcastically saying that was he said was correct, but obvious.

If you had bothered to read what Milano/Driver/the other women have said you would see that they concur with me. What Damon said was both fucking obvious and completely beside the point.

You know what I do when someone says something obvious? I say “OK, go on…”. If their only point is an obvious one then we might do as you did and say “Well, duh”.

Well duh.

But at no point does it become worthy of chastisement in itself.

Why not? I think that both Driver and Milano make strong points. I agree with them. Why do you think they are wrong?

I think this is an example of how some are becoming somewhat hysterical over this, and it’s not helpful.

And of course you would use the word “hysterical.” You think Damon is just speaking the truth. But the women? “Hysterical.”

Do you know what isn’t helpful? Tone-deaf comments like Damon’s.

We are talking about an industry that has systematically treated women and people of colour like shit since the industry began. An industry where 50% of film school graduates are women but they only end up directing 2% of blockbusters. They make 46% less than men as directors. They have to put up with bullshit like this every fucking day. Its an industry where Mira Sorvino spent the last fifteen years wanting to get that break-through part that was never-ever going to fucking happen because she was put on a blacklist she didn’t even know about. Its an industry where people like Harvey Weinstein allegedly sexually harassed/assaulted/raped people with impunity for the last twenty years right up until now.

Matt Damon is 47. Alyssa Milano is 44. We watched Milano grow up in front of our eyes. Milano said yesterday “I have been a victim of each component of the sexual assault spectrum of which you speak.” That spectrum, according to Damon, includes indecent exposure, groping, molestation and rape. These are things that all women in the film and television industry are constantly aware of, and these are things that most people have discovered this year to be a lot more common than maybe we thought. But for men like Matt Damon? He doesn’t have a fucking clue. He proved a few years ago (on Project Greenlight) that he doesn’t understand diversity and he’s proving now he doesn’t have a fucking clue about what women have to deal with. He didn’t even know what Louis CK had done. Yet he felt qualified enough to say “the price that he’s paid at this point is so beyond anything.”

Women are outraged. They are angry and they have every fucking right to express that anger and if people happen to think that being angry “isn’t helping” then I’m pretty sure that Milano would say to them “Tough Shit.” But the one thing that they aren’t being is hysterical. Go read what Milano and what Driver said again. What they wrote was calm and measured and angry but it didn’t come close to being hysterical.

[Mijin]

@Banquet_Bear

…decline? Nobody asked me to explain why Damon was “chastised.” I posted to correct the mis-characterization of Alyssa Milano’s position. And I did that by posting exactly what Milano said. So if you want to know why Matt got “chastised” then I suggest you read what she has to say. It doesn’t surprise me though that you managed to miss what Milano said because part of the problem is that people are not listening to what women have to say.

That was a typo, I meant you didn’t deign to explain what he’d done wrong. And you’re still just saying “just look at their words” over and over again. Why don’t you just explain it yourself?
The closest you’ve come to a direct criticism is that what he said was “beside the point” or “tone deaf”. How is that worth chastizing?

And of course you would use the word “hysterical.” You think Damon is just speaking the truth. But the women? “Hysterical.”

Not “the women”, the people, male or female, chastizing Matt over that sentence are being hysterical (over this).

We are talking about an industry that has systematically treated women and people of colour like shit since the industry began.

Sure, and I’m glad this scandal is all coming out in the open.
I just feel like some of the more hysterical things that some are saying are not helping this process.

Women are outraged. They are angry and they have every fucking right to express that anger and if people happen to think that being angry “isn’t helping” then I’m pretty sure that Milano would say to them “Tough Shit.” But the one thing that they aren’t being is hysterical. Go read what Milano and what Driver said again. What they wrote was calm and measured and angry but it didn’t come close to being hysterical.

Put it this way: if I’m angry at someone who calmly made an accurate observation, I would ask myself if I’m behaving hysterically.

[Banquet_Bear]

@Mijin

That was a typo, I meant you didn’t deign to explain what he’d done wrong.

…you are absolutely correct. I didn’t deign to explain what Damon did wrong. Because both Milano and Driver have done that already.

And you’re still just saying “just look at their words” over and over again. Why don’t you just explain it yourself?

Because I’m a guy. And I don’t come close to having the perspective that Milano and Driver have. So listen to them not to me. Why do you imagine I could explain it better than them? Just listen to them already. One of their complaints is that they are not being listened too. So when wanting to understand what they are saying: why are you asking a man to interpret their words? Can’t you handle reading a few tweets?

The closest you’ve come to a direct criticism is that what he said was “beside the point” or “tone deaf”. How is that worth chastizing?

It is beside the point and it is tone deaf. Somebody that walks into a funeral and says of the deceased “that man was an utter bastard and I hated him and he deserved to die” may well be “speaking the truth”: but to say it in front of a grieving widow would be tone-fucking-deaf and I wouldn’t feel bad chastizing him. And I can chastise Matt Damon for being tone-fucking-deaf and if you think that I’m wrong why should I care?

Not “the women”, the people, male or female, chastizing Matt over that sentence are being hysterical (over this).

Just stop using the word hysteriaalready. Nobody is acting hysterical over this. The critique of Damon has been both reasoned and measured.

Sure, and I’m glad this scandal is all coming out in the open.
I just feel like some of the more hysterical things that some are saying are not helping this process.

Do some research into the history of the word “hysterical.” Understand how loaded that word is and even though you are claiming to be using it to talk about “male or female” the historical usage of the word is almost exclusively aimed at women. And then look at the context in which you have chosen to use it: defending a man from critique by women.

Then realize that you are every bit a part of the problem.

Put it this way: if I’m angry at someone who calmly made an accurate observation, I would ask myself if I’m behaving hysterically.

They are angry at someone who is a gate-keeper in the industry, they are angry at someone who in that interview expressed more empathy for Louis CK than for any of the victims of groping, harassment or abuse. They aren’t angry because he “expressed an accurate observation.” Thats a strawman. Thats a gamergate talking point.

[Mijin]

@Banquet_Bear

…you are absolutely correct. I didn’t deign to explain what Damon did wrong. Because both Milano and Driver have done that already.

This is a discussion forum. It’s not enough here to just say “Their words speak for themselves”. You’re supposed to bring points and arguments here.

Because I’m a guy. And I don’t come close to having the perspective that Milano and Driver have. So listen to them not to me. Why do you imagine I could explain it better than them? Just listen to them already. One of their complaints is that they are not being listened too. So when wanting to understand what they are saying: why are you asking a man to interpret their words? Can’t you handle reading a few tweets?

I can’t ask them what they mean but I can ask you why you think they have a point.

It is beside the point and it is tone deaf. Somebody that walks into a funeral and says of the deceased “that man was an utter bastard and I hated him and he deserved to die” may well be “speaking the truth”: but to say it in front of a grieving widow would be tone-fucking-deaf and I wouldn’t feel bad chastizing him.

There’s a specific reason though why that would be upsetting: it’s making a rude comment. Damon, is not doing this.

And I can chastise Matt Damon for being tone-fucking-deaf and if you think that I’m wrong why should I care?

I never suggested you should. But this is a discussion forum and I assume you’re here to discuss things.

Do some research into the history of the word “hysterical.” Understand how loaded that word is and even though you are claiming to be using it to talk about “male or female” the historical usage of the word is almost exclusively aimed at women. And then look at the context in which you have chosen to use it: defending a man from critique by women.

Again, no I’m not.
It’s you who really wants to frame this as me being against “the women”.
I’m against this specific position on something Matt Damon said, which means for example, I disagree with you.

They are angry at someone who is a gate-keeper in the industry, they are angry at someone who in that interview expressed more empathy for Louis CK than for any of the victims of groping, harassment or abuse.

If he expressed sympathy for Louis CK over the victims then that’s worthy of criticism. Do you have a cite for that?

[wonky]

@Mijin

Put it this way: if I’m angry at someone who calmly made an accurate observation, I would ask myself if I’m behaving hysterically.

There are millions of times and places where certain “accurate observations” do not belong. I’m sure we can all think of dozens of examples.

[Spice_Weasel]

Person A: Omg, did you hear that Betty was robbed at gunpoint last night? She was terrified.
Person B: We all need to keep in mind that murder is much worse than robbery. Terrible what happened to the robber, though.
Person C: What an inappropriate and tone-deaf thing to say! I’ve personally been robbed, and I have empathy for people who have gone through that.
Person D: Why are people getting so hysterical over this?

[wonky]

@Spice_Weasel

Person A: Omg, did you hear that Betty was robbed at gunpoint last night? She was terrified.
Person B: We all need to keep in mind that murder is much worse than robbery. Terrible what happened to the robber, though.
Person C: What an inappropriate and tone-deaf thing to say! I’ve personally been robbed, and I have empathy for people who have gone through that.
Person D: Why are people getting so hysterical over this?

Person E: I’m really worried that this will interfere with my ability to borrow a dollar from Chuck.

[ZPG_Zealot]

@Saintly_Loser

I’m the father of a four-year-old girl. When taking her to the park (one of those no-adults-allowed-unaccompanied-by-children playgrounds), if she’s happily playing with her friends, I’ll sit on a bench and maybe read a book or something.

More than once, I’ve been asked to leave the park by paranoid mommies who believe every man is just waiting for the chance to abduct their babies. It doesn’t help that I’m significantly older than the typical parent of a four-year-old. I’ve had them demand that I point out my child, and then had the fucking bitches accost my child and tell her to point out her daddy, so they can be satisfied that I’m not a child molester. And, of course, if I make any kind of scene and call them on their bullshit, I’m the bad guy and my poor daughter will no longer be welcome at the playground. Assuming I’m not banned forever.

Everything isn’t always fine. There are stupid people out there. There are bad people who will seize any opportunity to be moralizing, puritanical amateur special cops. I hate them. And they are legion in my neck of the woods. Lots of them. Organic-food eating natural fiber wearing wives of rich men with nothing better to do than inflict themselves on ordinary people.

I suppose you would rather they blandly wave good-bye as someone else escorts your child to their car? Get a grip, a few questions are a minor inconvenience, and act like a responsible adult who should be grateful that members of the community actually care that children aren’t being harmed.

[Velocity]

@ZPG_Zealot

I suppose you would rather they blandly wave good-bye as someone else escorts your child to their car? Get a grip, a few questions are a minor inconvenience, and act like a responsible adult who should be grateful that members of the community actually care that children aren’t being harmed.

Your attitude reminds me of an incident I recently witnessed at a store in Austin where a big burly Indian or Pakistani man was walking about in the store minding his own business, and a fidgety white woman began confiding to the cashier, *“I’m worried about that man, I think he might carry out a shooting or something…these days you never know…better to be safe than sorry,” * suggesting that the police or security ought to be contacted. Again, this man was doing nothing except minding his own business - not threatening anyone, not being hostile to anyone in the least.
The “better safe than sorry, you never know these days” mindset enables all kinds of profiling and stereotyping and prejudice, *and *all the while giving the stereotyper a sense of moral righteousness.

[DSeid]

@Banquet_Bear

…lets be absolutely clear on what Milano was chastising Damon for:

Who the fuck is conflating “patting someone on the butt” with “child molestation?” …

A whole bunch of the mass media is. Talk about gaslighting. As just one small example, the allegations against Franken being handled as of the same sort as the allegations against Moore.

Someone here saying something like “well it’s all a cancer” … sure, and basal cell skin cancer and pancreatic cancer are both cancers too. But if when the media conflates them both in some stupid ass “War on Cancer” as if they are the same thing, with the same causes, the same impacts, and the same treatment approaches, they do the goal of creating progress no favors. (And for those who don’t know, basal cell is no big woof, pancreatic nearly always kills. Cancers are different. Have different causes, different prognosis. Different treatment plans and different options to detect and to prevent. Lumping them all together as if they are one thing with the same causes, same treatment plans, and same approach to prevention, is ignorance.)

Or maybe the more apt analogy is the “War on Drugs” in which “Drugs are Bad” produces a zero tolerance and Draconian response to all from being a heroin distributor to possession of personal use “crack cocaine” to of the same amount of pot.
Or to use the fictional dialogue approach -

Person A: Did you hear that Mr. Muldoon raped a teenaged girl?
(All: Horrible!)
Person B: And Dr. Wilinski molested patients while they were under anesthesia.
(All: Horrible!)
Person C: And someone said Mr. Wu patted a woman on her ass!
(All: Horrible!)
Person D: This is all sexual abuse. Mr. Wu needs to be run out of town! No tolerance!
Person E: Hey. Um. Maybe these aren’t all exactly the same things …
Persons A to D: You are horribly tone deaf! How dare you? You have empathy for Muldoon and Wilinski and not for their victims. Jerk.

Now if you think Person D is a fiction in today’s environment, fine. But again, talk about gaslighting.

And if you think Person E would be completely out of line, well some of us disagree. We can condemn Wu’s behavior if he did it, and still feel the need to point out that lumping it as self-same with Muldoon’s and Wilinski’s may not be the best way approach. And if that gets us labelled as male jerks then so be it.

[raventhief]

Person A: I’ve just been diagnosed with basal skin cancer. I’m shaken… I’m getting treatment of course, but still. I’m worried.

Person B: skin cancer? That’s no big woof. My friend over there has pancreatic cancer. He’s the one who should be shaken and worried. You shouldn’t even be worried about treating skin cancer. It’s nothing when people are suffering from cancer like pancreatic.

That’s the thing that bothers me. Groping and rape are different. But there seems to be almost a suggestion that because groping is " mild" assault, instead of a more " severe" assault- we should… what? Ignore the skin cancer because it’s no big deal? No we don’t treat them the same way medically, but on a personal level do you discount the concerns of the skin cancer patient because it could have been worse?

[Spice_Weasel]

I haven’t been following a lot of the media coverage, but I have seen a lot of individual debate over what to do about people like Franken. I think a large part of the issue there is that he is seen as representing the Democratic party and his actions can therefore be used against them. In other words, politics. I haven’t really looked at the claims against him deeply enough to have an opinion about what the consequences should be in a perfect, politic-free world.

I favor zero tolerance in the sense of, “All varieties of sexual harassment/assault are bad and should never be excused or handwaved away” but NOT in the sense of “all acts should have equal consequences.” the problem is it’s difficult to say the latter without seeming to invalidate the former, and the media’s involvement complicates things dramatically. It’s the coverage itself that impacts the consequences and not a more objective standard. I agree that’s a problem.

[ZPG_Zealot]

@Velocity

Your attitude reminds me of an incident I recently witnessed at a store in Austin where a big burly Indian or Pakistani man was walking about in the store minding his own business, and a fidgety white woman began confiding to the cashier, *“I’m worried about that man, I think he might carry out a shooting or something…these days you never know…better to be safe than sorry,” * suggesting that the police or security ought to be contacted. Again, this man was doing nothing except minding his own business - not threatening anyone, not being hostile to anyone in the least.
The “better safe than sorry, you never know these days” mindset enables all kinds of profiling and stereotyping and prejudice, *and *all the while giving the stereotyper a sense of moral righteousness.

James Bugler might be alive today if someone had asked, “Where is your, Mum?” I firmly believe it takes a village to raise a child, but that also means from time to time the village is going to ask some inconvenient questions of people. I consider it the price we accept for living in a better world.

[DSeid]

@raventhief

… That’s the thing that bothers me. Groping and rape are different. But there seems to be almost a suggestion that because groping is " mild" assault, instead of a more " severe" assault- we should… what? Ignore the skin cancer because it’s no big deal?..

If people were indeed suggesting that groping should be ignored as a problem, or that victims of groping or even inappropriate comments somehow should not be angry and upset, or that there is not a systemic problem that needs serious societal and cultural intervention, then no question that would be wrong. And probably there are people who do say that.

But that is in no way what Damon said or implied.

[DSeid]

@ZPG_Zealot

… the village is going to ask some inconvenient questions of people. I consider it the price we accept for living in a better world.

Especially if people look a part. Be it Arabic, Black, or whatever profiling is your wont. It’s for a better world!

As to what is “better” … YMMV.

[ZPG_Zealot]

@DSeid

Especially if people look a part. Be it Arabic, Black, or whatever profiling is your wont. It’s for a better world!

As to what is “better” … YMMV.

I believe we can all agree “better” is a world in which people pay enough attention to the environment around them to try to prevent others from being harmed. Yeah, it sucks to be profiled. You know what else sucks being a little kid and having adults abuse you while other adults stand around ignoring it.