Thong-checking teacher says it was safety issue.

In My Humble Opinion
121

I taught college-level composition for 8 years. Had I once forced or even asked a student to show me her (or, for that matter, his) underwear whether at an official school function or not, I would have scuttled my career. Hell, if she’d done it of her own volition, I’d have still had trouble. For the most part, these are legal adults. Why, then, should an official dealing with minors be able to perform what is basically a strip-search when even a law enforcement officer couldn’t legally do so?

I’m sorry, shrew, I can back you up on every other example you gave, but none of those violated the person and the body of the students involved. If I want to go commando while I’m out on sales calls with my boss, she’s not allowed to unzip my britches to check even if I’m pitching a tent. If I’m running around in drag on Two Notch Road (the hooker section of town here), and a cop doesn’t see me proposition anyone, he or she can’t reach up under my skirt to see if I’m wearing panties or not.

This is not a fine-line judgement call. This is a clear violation of students’ rights to be sovereign over their own bodies. And even children have the right to keep their genetalia to themselves without legal probable cause. Forcing minors to show their underwear to people of the opposite sex is a molestation equivalent to the child-porn websites that show prepubescent girls in non-revealing but sexy lingerie.

And to address your earlier comment that “there are no evil acts but only evil intentions,” I would only say that the ends do not always justify the means and that (to hit you over the head with a cliche) the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

122

shrew, I was just joking about what was probably bad phrasing on Ms. Wilson’s part (calling it a ‘safety’ issue). On the other hand, I don’t know what word she might have meant instead of ‘safety.’

The large point I think you’re making is that in high pressure situations, we should be very careful to criticize judgment calls.

The point in most cases may be valid, but in this case, I disagree.
Society has a right to expect some level of good judgment from a school administrator.

It is NEVER the right call to force someone expose themselves in public.

123

It is obvious that we have a standoff here and it has gotten to be a lot of rehashing the same old things. So, what I want to know is what do you want to see happen to Ms. Wilson?
[ul][li] Reprimand her[/li][li]Demote/transfer her[/li][li] Fire her[/li][li] Firing squad[/ul][/li]
Which one? :confused:

124

I made the comment in a predominantly African-American high school to a homogenous African-American class about an African-American teacher. The only thing that saved my ass was my impeccable reputation.

Wikkit, most students know their rights these days. They can say, “I’ve got rights!” ten times faster than they can say, “I was wrong.”

Well, defending the obvious gets old after a while.

wordman, I think it’s an interesting argument as well. Glad you do too. :slight_smile:

You’re comparing brutal beatings and slaughters of whole villages with panty checks? Seriously?

Let me break this down to a personal level. I was having coffee with a friend about an hour ago. My mother called on my cellphone, and my friend said the word “bitch” aloud while I was on the phone with my mother. I shushed my friend and then got up and went outside to finish my conversation. When I got off the phone, my friend said, “I have the right to speak. It was just your fucking mother.”

Now, I could say that I don’t care what stress she was under, or that her horrific behavior was over the line and unforgivable. But as soon as she calmed down from the argument she had been having that caused her to say the word bitch, she realized what she had done and apologized profusely for misdirecting her anger at me and my precious mother. I’m not going to “fire” her, get rid of her, or even be angry with her tomorrow. Her previous “record” in our friendship is such that she has earned the right to a screwup or two. I see jobs in the same light. If years in a job earn you no company/organizational loyalty, then we’re all just at the mercy of ruthless accusations. Reputation has to stand for something still, doesn’t it?

Hastur, everyone deserves a defense, even if it’s just for the sake of enlightened thinking.

kniz, I could live with a reprimand, but I wouldn’t mind a transfer either.

125

I love enlightened thinking, Kate. When do you plan on showing some?

126

We arrived at insults, Hastur? Curious. Interesting.

And call me Kate all you like. It’s not my name, but if the Shakespearean reference makes you feel intelligent, feel free. Lord knows you probably need all the validation you can get.

To everyone else, I have to leave town again for the weekend. Again, I look forward to reading the responses when I get back.

127

Just a quick question for the teachers who have responded to this thread (and anyone else, of course).

If the Principal is reinstated, do you think it’s possible for things to go back to normal?

Do you think the her return would have negative consequences for the school environment (student/parent hostility, etc), or do you think that people have short memories, and this will soon die down?

I’d be really interested in hearing some opinions about this.

Thanks!

128

Here’s the problem, this school districts guidelines for appropriate dress make absolutely no mention of underwear that isn’t visible regardless of its style. So long as the girls involved were not exposing their underwear, they could not, by definition, be in violation of the rule.

In addition, the girls were being checked before the dance began, so none of them had done anything in violation of any rule, or to expose themselves in any fashion.

The vice principal made the decision to act preemptively to “prevent” problems at the dance. Unfortunately, she did so in a fashion which embarrassed innocent students, inappropriately exposed them to their peers (of both genders) and other adults, did so in a manner that even the police office on scene found inappropriate (but apparently felt powerless to stop) and did so above vociferous objections and demurrers of those involved.

One 16 year old girl reported that she was grabbed by the shoulders, and the front of her dress was pulled away from her body so that she could be “inspected” for a brassiere. Now, if she hadn’t been wearing one, she would not have been in violation of any rule, but she would’ve then been ogled by Miss “Safety Issue” principal, which the principal knew. Now, maybe in your world, Shrew, it’s appropriate for VPs to get an eyeful of pubescent girls’ breasts against the girls’ wishes, but in my world, it is not. If one wants to check to see if a girl is wearing a bra, one could touch her back or shoulders through her clothing to check for straps. One does not have to potentially expose the girl’s breasts. When one chooses to do so, it calls their true motivation into question in a major way.

Yes, this was a “mistake” in as much as it was an action which should never have happened. But I am not willing to give benefit of the doubt that this woman had nothing but good intentions when she was putting her hands on the students. She was grabbing young women – not to prevent imminent danger or injury, not because they were fighting, not because they were already showing underwear. This was unquestionably wrong. You do not put your hands on students. To take it a step further and move or semi-remove their clothing is absolutely unconscionable.

If these weren’t minors in a school context, Ms. Wilson’s behavior would be assault, perhaps even indecent assault. Imagine if she were a boss who did this to an employee. Or if she cornered some other woman at a shopping mall, for instance, and grabbed at her skirt. She’d be thrown in jail and marked a pervert and no one would question it – and that would be if she did it once, and in this situation these abuses happened repeatedly. I am not personally willing to have a completely different perspective on the extreme inappropriateness of this because it was in the context of a school adminstrator and student at a dance. The “risk” of freak dancing or underwear exposing by a limited number of students does not justify assaulting these teenagers in this fashion, period. This woman should be glad that she’s not about to do jail time and end up branded for a lifetime under Megan’s Law. She, IMO, deserves both.

And yes, I’ve taught, briefly on the middle school level, for two years on the high school level, it’s been a while (a long while) but I’m aware of the rigors of the education field. I’d still be glad to see this woman facing criminal charges. She has absolutely no place in the educational system now, anywhere in this world. She has forfeited her career and her reputation and any professional integrity or acheivement that she may have attained by virtue of being a callous, disrespectful, disreputable borderline molestor.

129

Well really you bring it on yourself. The best teachers I’ve always had are the ones who had an easy job. They were the ones who didn’t always stick up for the other teachers and didn’t view the students as an obstacle to overcome.

Reputation stands for something, but it can be undeserved. Simply working at a job for some years deserves no reputation. She might have done good before, but no one even mentions the teachers reputation as good in any news articles so it probably wasn’t.

130

[ul]:eek: [sup]Not much doubt about what tlw wants. BLOOD[/sup][/ul]

131

Your whole post just restated what I’ve already said. I’ve said she was wrong AD NAUSEUM.

Well, except for this part, which is purely inflammatory and laughable.

Everyone wants a scapegoat, don’t they? No one wants to see the larger picture. Suuuuuuuuuure. This woman must be eeeeeeeevil. Lock her up and let her spend eternity in prison!! That will solve this problem. Geez, tlw, I hope for your sake that you never do anything wrong, and that if you do, the people who judge you are kinder to you than you’ve been to this woman.

You know, the most popular teachers (with the students) are usually the ones who sit on their asses and do nothing, badmouthing the good teachers behind their backs to the students, and generally pissing the rest of us off. I may not make much money, but I earn every dime. I don’t need for the students to like me. It’s not a popularity contest. I just need for the students to learn from me. When the students know you genuinely care about them, they will not only like you, but they will love you.
Be back Monday.

132

I think she should face criminal charges, too.

She would if she were a man. If this were a male teacher peeking up the skirts and down the shirts of female students we’d all be calling for blood. I would expect us to be gender blind.

What she did can be construed as sexual abuse of minors.

That does not appear to be her intent. But that’s for a court to decide. Not the school district.

I certainly think she needs to be fired. This was completely inappropriate. Any principal does a “panty check” on my daughter (regardless of how she is dressed - that’s for me, the parent to decide - and the school can certainly turn her away at the door for dressing inappropriately or throw her out of the dance for dancing inappropriately) and I’ll be suing.

There are plenty of links in this thread about how schools have chosen to deal with this problem in a responsible manner. Its not she didn’t have a whole range of reasonable options - from keeping the lights on to not holding the dance.

133

I tend to feel this is the end of her career: I can’t really object to the idea that she should be fired. However, I also feel this sort of aching sympathy for the woman: I can’t imagene not feeling an aching sympathy for anyone who ruined a long career with one bad choice.

Excuse me? Where does wanting “to provide a safe, structured enviroment for you to learn in, and to keep from being sued” translate into “stick[ing] up for other teachers [and] view[ing] students as an obstacles to overcome.”?

134

From my earlier posts, I think at least a few of you have the impression that I am a high school student. I’m actually 28, but I remember life in public high school quite well.

As students, we had virtually no rights, and the entire system was always tilted in favor of the faculty.

We had three interconnected buildings, with four floors each; two of these buildings had an elevator. Handicapped or injured students had a key to use it; the rest of us didn’t. ALL of the faculty, a majority of which was overweight, had full permission to use the elevator. One of the vice principals and his cohorts actually patrolled the campus with walkie-talkies to catch me with my bootleg elevator key.

Since our school was downtown, our parking lot was very small. You had to arrive early to get a space; that somewhat served as an incentive to get to school on time. Then, it was changed to a pay system, where ALL the faculty was guaranteed a space; we students had to fight for the scraps.

Anyway, sorry for all the hijacking there…I just wanted to point out that if anyone thinks that students actually have rights, they’re fooling themselves. Yes, I’ll admit that I have a grudge, and I’m biased in favor of the students.

And I’ve still never agreed with that “ounce of prevention” bit; it reeks of discrimination. Let’s say ten girls want to freak-dance. There are ten boys; nine of whom want to dance with the girls and have a good time. The tenth boy wants to rip off their clothes and rape them. Are you saying that 19 people should suffer because of one bad guy?

I thought that everyone agreed that a woman has the right to dress scantily and walk through a dark alley at midnight, and that doing so does not give anyone else the right to rape her. Why don’t we apply that same standard at the school dance?

Look, sex is great, and teens know it; it’s pure folly to think we’ll be able to fool them. One of the many problems with schools, in my opinion, is the anti-sex attitude they’re impress on the students.

I am also deeply saddened by the fact that most parents expect teachers to act as parents. Teachers can probably explain math, science, and English a lot better than I can; that’s why I’ll send my kids to school. However, I do know which personal values I’d like to pass on to my children, and I certainly don’t want my tax dollars funding anything to the contrary.

That being said, shrew and Manda JO are right; it’s very tough to know what you can and can’t do with children who aren’t yours. I spend a lot of time with my four-year-old niece, and occasionally find myself in disagreement with how my sister raises her–I realize it’s not my kid, and I try to make the best compromise I can, but it’s very difficult sometimes.

If any of my children come home to tell me that their locker, purse, bra, or underpants have been inspected, I will be certain to arrive the next morning with my son/daughter, to demand an explanation, and make sure it doesn’t happen again. I’d rather have a face-to-face discussion with the offender rather than sue, but I’d explore both options.

I highly doubt that Ms. Winslow is an evil person or a pervert; my impression is that she thought she was doing the right thing. Either she’s an anti-sex old fart, or a very poor judge of how to enforce rules, or perhaps both. Either of those flaws make her unsuited for school duty, no matter how great a person she is.

135

So following that logic, Mrs. Wilson should’ve been charged long ago for going into the girl’s restroom and/or the girl’s locker room?

[sup]1[/sup]The terms best teachers and easy job do not equate. Anyone that thinks they do has no concept of what being a teacher is all about. [sup]2[/sup]As to not sticking up for other teachers, I would say that like many such situations it is “hang together or hang separately”. [sup]3[/sup]“Didn’t view the students as obstacles to overcome” while they kept their heads in the sand and waited for pay day. [sup]4[/sup]I guess you are inferring that shrew would not be on a list of “best teachers”.

In going over the story I noticed that one of the parents involved has a daughter that admitted to having on a thong and was sent home, without any lifting of her skirt. So maybe the school couldn’t have merely sent the girls home after questioning. Either that or these parents are just jumping on the bandwagon.

Also while searching for the story, I found the titles of two songs:
[ul][li] Freak on a Leash[/li][li] Thong Song[/ul][/li]
Oh, &

She has folks, but you must not want to listen. Some of you have some kind of agenda. To his credit Chris Luongo admits that he does, but then saves himself by saying:

Hey! he isn’t really out for blood!

136

What the hell? I don’t feel sorry for her. If she doesn’t have the common sense to know better, well, that’s just too damn bad.

I can understand having a tough job-but honestly, anyone with half a brain should have known better than to think this was a GOOD idea?

137

kniz,

Can you really not tell the difference between lifting a girls skirt up in public and supervising a locker room? She starts “inspecting” girls in the locker room and she’s out of line, too (and in need of firing).

What if I’m wearing no underwear to the dance (and don’t intend to freak so its only something I know). Yeah, it might be stupid to go in public with a skirt and no panties and expect no one to see - but I’d expect if anyone caught a peek, it would be from my own folly, not from a teacher playing “I see London, I see France.” Having known a lot of 16 and 17 year old girls who went panty-less in the 1980s (spandex skirts made it a requirement if you didn’t wear a thong or want panty lines), it ain’t unlikely that she’d be giving herself, the other students, and the cop a show of a minor’s private parts.

138

This argument was obviously a rhetorical device. I of course am not saying slaughters of whole villages is morally equal to checking panties. I was thinking of stressful jobs and what is considered over the line for them. Cops and soldiers first came to mind, especially since cops constantly get a bad rap and I keep on hearing the same sorts of justifications about “you don’t know what it’s like being out there” as I am hearing here. It’s the exact same argument, so I introduced it. I think it’s a valid comparison, but it seems your mileage varies.

And to toss it back at you, your friend saying “bitch” while ma is on the phone cannot possibly be construed as being in the same category as asking girls to flash their undercarriage.

Listen, thing is, fine, it’s rough being a teacher. Hell, I wouldn’t want to do it. But the thing is, it is up to the parents to decide whether they want this teacher in or out. Reputation only takes you so far, in any job. If I as a freelance photographer screw up just ONE assignment for a client, then I can kiss that client goodbye, and maybe others if word got 'round. There’s no room for error. One really bad day can ruin my year. Why shouldn’t teachers, especially in Ms. Wilson’s position, why shouldn’t they also be subject to such scrutiny.

Then again, I don’t believe in company loyalty, everyone is replaceable…but that’s a subject for another time…

139

Ok, picture this senario: a freelance photographer is taking pictures in a place where they have very different nudity taboos than in the U.S. A great many of these pictures are of naked kids playing: kids are cute, they make good photos. There isn’t the slightest hint of sexuality about any of it. One of the pictures he takes resembles very closely a classic “porn” pose: a girl somersaulting or two girls wrestleing or something. Out of context, the picture looks exactly like child porn. The photographer dosen’t notice: he makes a huge mistake, and just fails to see how the picture looks if you weren’t there the day he shot it. He includes it in a book of photographs he published, and there is an proar: Nambla puts it on their website, clearly crediting him for all the world to see.

He manages to get the picture taken down, and explains that he just made a huge mistake. His career is over, and you may totally agree that his carreer should be over. But even as you agree with that, might you not feel a bit of sympathy when people who know nothing about the guy except for one photo declare that he must be a pedophile, or that he disgusts them? Even as you agree that anyone that could use that poor of judgement has no business taking pictures outside an Olan Mills studio, might there not be a little voice in the back of your head saying “Thank god that wasn’t me.”?

It’s the self-rightousness of people’s reactions that bother me: the “my god, I would never, ever, ever, under any circumstances make that big of a mistake” attitude. We are all capable of making tremendous mistakes under the right (or wrong) circumstances, and what saves us is not our sterling charecters alone; blind luck plays a larger role than we like to admit.

140

My point had to do with your saying that there should not be a difference as to gender. Maybe that was not a good example, so I’ll just say: It would have been worse if a man had done it. It immediately would have been treated different if a man had done it and rightfully so. That is my point, sorry for the confusion.