Thong-checking teacher says it was safety issue.

[JRDelirious]

Oh, BTW, as to whay should happen to the VP:

first, a note for any non-USA Dopers: in the USA, the primary and secondary public schools are normally run by autonomous school districts, usually headed by a board made up of locally elected citizens, and spanning a geographic/populational area AT MOST as large as one city or county (I believe the state with the least number of counties has 3 of them). Teachers and school administrators are normally employees of the local school district, NOT of the Dept. of Education of the State nor that of the Federal Government.

Though immediate termination would have been my instinctive preference, knowing she could hardly find another job in her field in the middle of all this publicity I’d say: for-the-record reprimand, demotion, and reassignment to a bureaucratic “desk job” away from the students (but NOT in charge of writing the dress codes ). Her career is already dead, I don’t want to send her to the poorhouse on top of it.

[nashiitashii]

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by rowrrbazzle *
**
[li]If you don’t have sex, you - oh.[/list] **[/li][/QUOTE]

Well, we have sexual drives for genetic purposes. If a person doesn’t have sex during their lives, they don’t pass on their genes. Unfortunately, due to history and evolution, puberty comes in the teenage years, and we don’t have a whole shitload of control over how we feel at that time period. Yes, a few of the population do incredibly stupid things that make the rest of us look bad, but that can’t be helped. It’s always been that way; the only difference is how fast information travels and the decline of social taboos.

[shrew]

Chris Luongo, I think if anyone assumed you were younger, it’s because…well, no offense…but your logic is a bit naive.

two of these buildings had an elevator. Handicapped or injured students had a key to use it; the rest of us didn’t. ALL of the faculty, a majority of which was overweight, had full permission to use the elevator. One of the vice principals and his cohorts actually patrolled the campus with walkie-talkies to catch me with my bootleg elevator key.

Since our school was downtown, our parking lot was very small. You had to arrive early to get a space; that somewhat served as an incentive to get to school on time. Then, it was changed to a pay system, where ALL the faculty was guaranteed a space; we students had to fight for the scraps.

I just wanted to point out that if anyone thinks that students actually have rights, they’re fooling themselves.

You actually think an elevator key and a parking space are rights??? Those are privileges, not rights. There’s a difference. Teachers have privileges that teenagers don’t simply by virtue of being EMPLOYEES, not students. Not having the perspective to this difference implies the self-centeredness of youth, but you still seem to maintain such lack of perspective. Um, again, you SEEM like a teenager, so sorry if we misunderstood.

And why the hell did you have a bootleg elevator key? Oh, because you thought you deserved one as much as the kids with disabilites? Come on.

by pulykamell:It’s the exact same argument, so I introduced it. I think it’s a valid comparison, but it seems your mileage varies.

No, it’s a good analogy. I see now what you were trying to say. All apologies.

by pulykamellAnd to toss it back at you, your friend saying “bitch” while ma is on the phone cannot possibly be construed as being in the same category as asking girls to flash their undercarriage.

The offense was not in saying “bitch”. The offense was in referring to my mother as “just your fucking mother.” I considered jumping straight across the table, but I would’ve spilled my chai. I’m Southern, and a mama’s girl to boot. She’s lucky my mama raised a lady, or she’d be minus a few front teeth.

There’s no room for error. One really bad day can ruin my year. Why shouldn’t teachers, especially in Ms. Wilson’s position, why shouldn’t they also be subject to such scrutiny.

Because there are too many factors involved in education that are not up to the teachers. Teachers work with the cards they’re dealt. You, however, have much more control over your bad days, where teachers don’t.

manda jo, excellent example. simply excellent.

[Chris_Luongo]

shrew,

Yes, I do know that a lot of my notions are wacky, and I don’t always claim that I’m right. I’m sure I’m wrong about a lot of things.

By the way, I was a student, yes, but I was also a customer, by virtue of my mother paying her property taxes. Well, actually, since I was a minor, I guess you’d say my mother was the customer; I was simply the recipient of the services she purchased.

A parking space or elevator access are privleges, I admit. But suppose you open a supermarket where the employees all park by the door, and the customers only get to park on the far edges of the lot, or in the one-hour zones out on the street. And in this fictional multi-level market, the employees ride elevators to do their duties, but the customers must lug their groceries up and down flights of stairs. How many people do you think would shop at that supermarket? Do you know of any legitimate business that operates in that fashion?

And no, I did not believe that my needs for the elevator met or surpassed those of the handicapped students. I did believe, however, that the faculty had no more right to the elevator than I did. The main reason I rode the elevator was because I knew the established system was wrong, not because I was lazy or in a hurry.

At my school, the one small elevator could never have met the demands of everyone in the building anyway. The elevator should have been reserved for the handicapped, and for the use of people transporting furniture, movie projectors, garbage, et cetera, regardless of faculty or student status.

And I don’t think I have, or ever had, “the self-centeredness of youth.” I didn’t want to force the teachers to walk to work. I didn’t want to make the janitor carry all the rubbish down the stairs. I only wanted fairness, not a caste system.

Also, thanks for not completely tearing me to shreds; I know a lot of my views are waaay off to one side or another. But I did get the feeling that a lot of other students felt the same way; they just didn’t fully realize or understand their feelings, or they didn’t know how to articulate them.

But anyway, enought about me and my school. Let’s get back to the subject at hand.

I’ll admit that I’m pretty sure I’m the only one here who is in favor of simply allowing the students to freak dance at will.

If the school desires to prevent the dancing, it needs more than just rules and enforcement. We’ll have to figure out WHY the students want to freak, and find a way to change their attitudes on the subject.

No matter how many rules are made, there will be a moment when no one will be watching, and the kids will do whatever they want. To TRULY remedy the problem, we don’t need rules; we have to get them to want something different.

[Rilchiam]

*Originally posted by Chris Luongo *
A parking space or elevator access are privleges, I admit. But suppose you open a supermarket where the employees all park by the door, and the customers only get to park on the far edges of the lot, or in the one-hour zones out on the street. And in this fictional multi-level market, the employees ride elevators to do their duties, but the customers must lug their groceries up and down flights of stairs. How many people do you think would shop at that supermarket? Do you know of any legitimate business that operates in that fashion?

When I worked at an amusement park, I went “behind the scenes” as much as possible when going from one store to another. I didn’t have to battle the crowds to get from the main entrance to one of the most popular rides; I had a straight shot through the tunnels. This was as it was because it helped me serve the guests better. For instance, if I had to leave one store to retrieve an item from another, I could make the trip in a third of the time it would have taken out in the open.

But I was forbidden to use any of the many public phones “onstage”. If I had to make a call, I had use one of the two staff phones. Cost the same, but there were two phones and several hundred of us. Just out of curiosity, did any of the teachers at your school get a free bus ride every day?
**

The main reason I rode the elevator was because I knew the established system was wrong, not because I was lazy or in a hurry.**

The main reason? So you were mainly doing it to prove a point? What were the subsidiary reasons?

**

One of the vice principals and his cohorts actually patrolled the campus with walkie-talkies to catch me with my bootleg elevator key.**

If you were, indeed, fighting the power, why did you not boldly declare your right to elevator access, and bring this injustice to everyone’s attention, instead of skulking about with something you admit was obtained dishonestly?

**

The elevator should have been reserved for the handicapped, and for the use of people transporting furniture, movie projectors, garbage, et cetera, regardless of faculty or student status.**

Were you any of those things?

**

And I don’t think I have, or ever had, “the self-centeredness of youth.” I didn’t want to force the teachers to walk to work. I didn’t want to make the janitor carry all the rubbish down the stairs. I only wanted fairness, not a caste system.**

I’m glad you wanted fairness. Because that is what you got.

[Maeglin]

manda jo, excellent example. simply excellent.

As fond as I am of Manda Jo, I fail to see how this example is relevant at all.

The photographer in question was ruined by tortious interference and violation of copyright by NAMBLA, a third party organization. While he showed poor judgment in including such a prurient photograph in his collection, the actual damage was caused by someone else. The photographer can seek legal relief by means of litigation against the wrongdoer.

Ms. Wilson, on the other hand, in a display of repeated poor judgment, brought all of her damages down upon her own head. She has no legal recourse; in fact, she had better have something of a war chest in order to defend herself against the individuals she wronged.

I think I understand where you are coming from, shrew. Sure, you aren’t trying to defend her, you just want us to understand where she might be coming from. But in no way does appreciation of the context actually mitigate what she did.

I have to wonder, did she really think she would get away with this? That none of her studends would complain? And if they did, that none of their parents would be angered and offended? The mind reels.

[MandaJo]

Chris Luongo, I have started a thread here discussing the points you raise: it seems like we are getting way off track, and these are interesting ideas that deserve their own thread.

[shrew]

by Chris:
By the way, I was a student, yes, but I was also a customer, by virtue of my mother paying her property taxes. Well, actually, since I was a minor, I guess you’d say my mother was the customer; I was simply the recipient of the services she purchased.

This theory always amuses me. You’re not buying anything by paying taxes. Simply paying taxes does not mean that you own the school or that you deserve any say so in the running of said school. There are myriads upon myriads of people who never have children, yet pay taxes. What have they bought?

Even if we do look at taxes as “tuition”, try marching into a private school and saying, “I pay tuition here, damnit!! My son/daughter deserves an elevator key and a better parking space than faculty members even though he has two perfectly good legs and no college degree!” They’d laugh in your face.

For the record, my parking space is closer to the school than the students’ parking spaces, and yet my students stil offer to carry my heavy stuff out to my car. Why? Because they respect me and the education that I provide for them. It’s all about perspective, which I still think you lack.

[quote]
But suppose you open a supermarket where the employees all park by the door, and the customers only get to park on the far edges of the lot, or in the one-hour zones out on the street. And in this fictional multi-level market, the employees ride elevators to do their duties, but the customers must lug their groceries up and down flights of stairs. How many people do you think would shop at that supermarket? Do you know of any legitimate business that operates in that fashion? **
A school is not a business. And the day it becomes one, I’ll walk out the door and never look back. There is an artistry to education…it is holy, sacred, and noble. It is not a money making venture, nor should it be treated as one.

And by the way, my guess would be that teachers were allowed to use the elevator to transport such things as TV stands, carts, overhead projectors, and other heavy teaching equipment. If teachers abused the privilege, there’s nothing I can say about that. But…adults are typically responsible enough to handle elevator privileges. I would hate to think of the horrors that would occur in a school elevator if students were given free reign. Yucky poo.

The hierarchies of adult/child and teacher/student are not caste systems. They’re merely relationships in which one has more earned power than the other. For a caste system, look to the students themselves.

by Rilchiam:
Just out of curiosity, did any of the teachers at your school get a free bus ride every day?

Man, the money I would save on gas!!! And while we’re at it, I’d like to get free lunch everyday…or even pay as little as the students do!! Hm, and can I make out with my boyfriend in the hallway? That’d be pretty cool. Or hang out in the parking lot with my friends and play really loud music? Can I get a DUI or get caught smoking pot? Did I get to keep my eyebrow ring when I started teaching? Wear blue jeans and shorts everyday???

No, I didn’t. If I receive a DUI or a drug conviction, I lose my job and my teaching license. Make out with my SO at school? Be seen drunk in public? Have facial piercings? Fired. Sure, I get to park closer, and sure I might get to use the elevator, but the expectations placed on me are much higher than those placed on a student. I’ve earned my privileges.

by Maeglin:
But in no way does appreciation of the context actually mitigate what she did.

Sad but true.

[TeaElle]

*Originally posted by shrew *
Well, except for this part, which is purely inflammatory and laughable.

No, what I said was simply the truth – clearly you do not find what this woman did nearly as serious as I do, because you continue to find excuses, throw out extinuating circumstances and completely tangental nonsequiturs in an attempt to quelch any stance which says that what she did was wrong, flat out, and should be punished severely and harshly, flat out. You refuse to consider that she may have had a motive which was not all goodness and light. You refuse to accept any opinion which stands firmly on the side of the students, the ones who were abused and wronged. I find it purely inflammatory and laughable to make attempts to mitigate the odiousness of this woman’s indecent assault on the students under her watch.

Everyone wants a scapegoat, don’t they? No one wants to see the larger picture. Suuuuuuuuuure. This woman must be eeeeeeeevil. Lock her up and let her spend eternity in prison!!

What is the larger picture that anyone here is failing to see? Since I’m apparently so blind, why don’t you explain it, in detail, Shrew? What context would even begin to dim the seriousness of Ms. Wilson’s offense?

And who has suggested that she was evil or should be locked away for eternity? No one said evil, they said wrong. Criminally wrong, for which she should face criminal penalty. That doesn’t mean lock her up and throw away the key. There is no need to exaggerate.

**

That will solve this problem.**

Nothing can “solve” this problem, because the abuse cannot be undone. But removing Ms. Wilson from ever having access to children again can and will prevent any such problems from happening again in the future.

**

Geez, tlw, I hope for your sake that you never do anything wrong, and that if you do, the people who judge you are kinder to you than you’ve been to this woman.**

Conversely, if I were to grab teenagers and remove or displace their clothing. exposing their bodies and undergarments in a public place, in front of their peers and other adults, I hope that the good and wise denizens of the SDMB would not try to find ways to excuse or explain away my inexcusable behavior.

**

You know, the most popular teachers (with the students) are usually the ones who sit on their asses and do nothing, badmouthing the good teachers behind their backs to the students, and generally pissing the rest of us off. I may not make much money, but I earn every dime. I don’t need for the students to like me. It’s not a popularity contest. I just need for the students to learn from me. When the students know you genuinely care about them, they will not only like you, but they will love you.**

Where and when I taught (in the Bronx, at schools which could be easily labeled as “inner city”) the most popular teachers with the students were the ones who were personable and fair. If we were there, the kids knew that we cared, because we could have all been anywhere else – choosing to stay in a hellish environment was proof enough of care. That made no difference to the kids. Those of us who treated the kids with respect and kindness, and had strong expectations for performance and behavior without screaming and yelling, and with flexibility to give a hand up to kids who weren’t cutting it (either way) and wanted to do better were the ones that the kids liked. We were working too hard, with too little, with much higher stakes to sit around on anything or badmouth anyone. But teacher popularity doesn’t have much to do with anything, anyway.

[shrew]

*Originally posted by tlw *
No, what I said was simply the truth – clearly you do not find what this woman did nearly as serious as I do, because you continue to find excuses, throw out extinuating circumstances and completely tangental nonsequiturs in an attempt to quelch any stance which says that what she did was wrong, flat out, and should be punished severely and harshly, flat out.

I am not this woman’s judge and jury. I do not know enough about the case to flat out say whether she deserves to be slapped on the wrist, fired, or otherwise punished. I avoid absolutes when the facts are unclear. Fault me for it if you like, but it’s a life philosophy of mine.

You refuse to consider that she may have had a motive which was not all goodness and light.

Nope. She could be a completely perverted, incompetent, poorly hired miscreant who never should have set foot in education. I’ve known more than my fair share of those, and she could certainly add to my list. I’m totally open to that possibility. Are you open to the possibility that she could be a fantastic educator as well as a wonderful human being who made one horrendous mistake?

You refuse to accept any opinion which stands firmly on the side of the students, the ones who were abused and wronged.

I’ve done no such thing. Arguing a point does not equal “refusing to accept” it. I will argue against poorly stated cases, but I will also willingly acknowledge good arguments, as I have done throughout this thread. Or did you mean to say that I refuse to change my mind??? If you’re expecting me to suddenly jump ship and change my opinion, then don’t hold your breath.

What is the larger picture that anyone here is failing to see? Since I’m apparently so blind, why don’t you explain it, in detail, Shrew? What context would even begin to dim the seriousness of Ms. Wilson’s offense?

The larger picture regards the type of behavior that this woman seemingly was trying to prevent. Exhibit A. The sexualization of youth. Truly, who is a bigger “pedophile”? Ms. Wilson, who inappropriately lifted the skirts of girls to check to make sure they were wearing proper underwear, or Abercrombie and Fitch, who makes thong underwear for prepubescent girls with sexually charged phrases such as “Eye Candy” and “Wink Wink” on the front??

I understand that the teenage years are, for many teens, inherently charged with all sorts of sexual experimentation, but the new heights that this experimentation has reached troubles me greatly.

The context that dims the seriousness of her offense hinges on her intentions. I’ve said this already. Sometimes educators break the rules in order to protect and/or benefit the children. I need to know why she did it.

Nothing can “solve” this problem, because the abuse cannot be undone. But removing Ms. Wilson from ever having access to children again can and will prevent any such problems from happening again in the future.

By all means then, let’s sterilize her. Or at the very least, post her on the “Sexual Offenders” list for California. Oh me, there I go exaggerating again.

Conversely, if I were to grab teenagers and remove or displace their clothing. exposing their bodies and undergarments in a public place, in front of their peers and other adults, I hope that the good and wise denizens of the SDMB would not try to find ways to excuse or explain away my inexcusable behavior.

If I am ever charged with grabbing a teenager, removing any article of clothing, and exposing his body and undergarments in a public place, I’ll be damned disappointed in the good and wise denizens of the SDMB should they NOT question why I did it. Prejudices, opinions based before the facts are known, are based in ignorance, and ignorance is what we strive to fight here.

[Mockingbird]

*Originally posted by shrew *
**We arrived at insults, Hastur? Curious. Interesting.

And call me Kate all you like. It’s not my name, but if the Shakespearean reference makes you feel intelligent, feel free. Lord knows you probably need all the validation you can get.

To everyone else, I have to leave town again for the weekend. Again, I look forward to reading the responses when I get back. **

We haven’t even gotten close to insults, Kate. Currently we’re at derision.

I don’t see you’ve gotten past trying to defend an indefensible act.

Would you mollycoddle a student who had committed an act as grave as this? Somehow, I doubt it.

[pulykamell]

Thanks, Maeglin, you got around to responding to that before I did.

Just for the record, I do not think this woman is necessarily a sexual pervert. I just think she’s exercised supremely bad judgment which no amount of context can rationalize. I normally withhold my opinions until further review, but Ms. Wilson has admitted, according to all the accounts I’ve read, what she’s done.

Obviously, shrew, you believe what she’s done is wrong. You’re defending her against a pile-up, asking us not to jump to conclusions and to understand the teacher’s point of view. This is commendable and I fully endorse this philosophy. However, I also do think that some of us have thought about it. Just because a woman asks students to lift their skirts does not mean she’s a pervert. I certainly don’t think so. I sincerely believe the woman was trying to handle the situation in the best way she thought possible. But her judgment is so supremely in err that I cannot conceive what fantasy world she was living in that she thought she’d get away with this.

For me, the question is not the sexualization of teenagers or sexual assault. Others can argue that; I won’t. For me it is the question of what is acceptable and unacceptable in a profession. For me, a valid analogy would be plagiarism for writers, or posing news photographs for photographers. Once you’re caught with that stigma, nobody will ever trust you again and your reputation is shot to hell, no matter your previous track record. Some folks can recover from this. Many more don’t.

That’s the issue for me.

[shrew]

*Originally posted by Hastur *
Would you mollycoddle a student who had committed an act as grave as this? Somehow, I doubt it.

Depends on his previous record and what his intentions were.

[Guinastasia]

I don’t think she’s a pervert, so much as an overprotective prude.

[Com2Kid]

*Originally posted by shrew *
**I don’t know. I’ve stopped going to school dances out of sheer shame from the way teenage girls dance. Even at the prom week before last, I sat the whole time in shock at the way teenage girls would expose themselves even when wearing such beautiful gowns. The girls kept begging me to get up and dance with them, but there was no way in hell I was going to associate myself with such debauchery.

The vice principal went about it the wrong way. She should have just canceled the dance. I really do feel for her. I totally understand where she’s coming from. I get so sick and tired of the sexual dynamic between teenage girls and boys. It’s animal-like and nauseating. There’s nothing sweet or romantic about it. We’re talking straight-up casual fucking between 15 year olds and younger. The girls lack self-esteem of any kind, and the boys have absolutely no respect for women because they see women as fuckrags. The clothes may only be a symptom, but the disease is enough to make me often hate my job.
**

::applauds::

I should print this out and give a copy to everybody who has ever asked me why I never went to any school dances.

[shrew]

*Originally posted by Guinastasia *
I don’t think she’s a pervert, so much as an overprotective prude.

That’s saying a lot though. There’s a huge difference.