I agree. The whole “WMD” thing is really a bit of a red-herring. If one is against the war you really don’t want to admit that WMDs were found in Iraq. If you are for the war, you do.
It’s a major debate point, so you have the people on one side belittling mustard gas, and people on the other side making much of it “Ha, ha! We found WMDs! In your face!”
The fact of the matter is that this old stuff lying around or misplaced. Still very very dangerous, but it doesn’t really change anything in the larger argument. As RTF and others point it, we went in there to stop great big programs stockpiles and factories, which it turns out don’t seem to exist.
But old mustard gas shells are bad bad shit, and shouldn’t be underplayed for fear of political backlash, either.
They are what they are.
I think Sarin is pretty bad shit, too. Apparently, it’s not all that hard to make, either, as these jokers in the Japanese cult were able to create it.
Oh, I agree with that; it’s just that it’s Shodan’s position that chemical and biological weapons in any amount constitue W.M.D., which i’m not in agreement with. A pinch (or any very tiny amount of sarin) isn’t going to do a mass amount of damage.
Now, I’m obviously not saying that mustard gas isn’t extremely horrible, but it’s main use seems to be as an incapacitating and terrorizing agent rather than something that can induce mass lethality. We have a 2% fatality rate but a very high casualty rate. This weapon wounds but rarely kills, it seems.
This is just the “term of art” issue again. It’s resonable to define certain agents as WMD’s, such that, in any amount, they retain that definition. It’s not reasonable to lose all perspective about the threat posed by a WMD agent in any amount merely because it carries the label “WMD”. A barrage of sarin bombs certainly could cause mass destruction, but that’s no reason to treat any quantity as if it could slaughter thousands. One could also slaughter thousands by crashing a jumbo jet into a skyscraper, but it’s not terribly useful to define 767s as WMDs, even though they can serve that function.
I honestly, don’t know. If you’re the one that takes a pinch of the stuff you’re probably going to die. If you release a tiny amount in the middle of the deserted woods it probably won’t do much.
So, actually in this example a pinch is quite a bit. One adult advil is 200 mg, about a pinch. A back of the envelope calculation makes it fatal at around 20 parts per million in exposure to air for about fifteen minutes, so I’m guessing your pinch is good to kill 200 people or so if dispersed and ingested perfectly. In reality, I’d guess you could take out a busload of people of so, or release it in an airplane and take out the whole plane.
Nothing to sneeze at.
The cites are all over this thread and in every news report. I specifically quoted David Kay as saying that the mustard agents were no longer lethal. The Duelfer Report explicitly says that the munitions “cannot cause mass casualties.” Fox News reported that the mustard shells were degraded. What is your basis for disputing it?
Which means very little since you’re ignoring the facts and substituting your own reality.
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You’ve provided a cite that any of these munitions are NOT deteriorated and degraded as the intelligence report, every news report and the WH itself and the White House claims? What is your cite that a single one of THESE shells contains any viable mustard gas agent?
I wasn’t using “a pinch” as a specific amount; more to point out that there is some small quantity of sarin (or any chemical/biological weapon) that isn’t enough to cause large-scale harm. I probably should have erred more on the smaller size.
Nobody’s belittleing mustard gas. It just doesn’t happen to exist in this story.
No, not very.,
Not when they’re degraded like these are.
I notice that the Freeper board is full of righties buzzing excitedly about WWI mustard gas shells. Is that where you latched on to this angle?
Decomposition upon heating is probably not relevant to the millisecond heating provided by an explosive charge. It takes time for a molecule to fall apart, and a split second at 500° followed by rapid flight through a cool atmosphere doesn’t provide much time.
What probably is relevant to Saddam’s shells is the surface temperature of the desert they were stored in. U.S. Army Center for Health Promotion and Preventive Medicine
Detailed Facts About Sulfur Mustard Agents
Presumably that corrosion rate is for GOOD steel. What were Saddam’s shells made of?
I asked for a cite and a quote. Where’s the quote in there, and how can it be relevant to these shells when the report is from 04?
I’m sorry DTC, I’m not providing any more cites until you show me the “official report” which you claim is “undisputed” showing that these particular shells have degraded to the point of uselessness.
Beats me, 'prolly at least as good as the ones made during WWI which are still viable. I wouldn’t be surprised if the interior of the shell that came in contact with the agent was coated with an anti-corrosive. I mean if you are going to go to the trouble to manufacture mustard gas and a delivery system why would you leave out an anti-corrosive coating?
I already provided it. It’s in the Duelfer Report I linked to, in the quote by David Kay which you keep refusing to acknowldege and in every single news report. What more do you want? Tha ball is in your court, Champ. Tell me how you know that the intelligence report is wrong.
The report is pdf so I can’t copy and paste anything.
The shells were found in 2003. This is not a new find. The only reason it’s “news” is that the intelligence report has only now been declassified. Have you actually read anything about this story at all?
I don´t understand the whole point of the debate at this point; leftover munitions that once upon a time were part of an actual arsenal of WMD (gaining the WMD part by reason of being an actual arsenal) were found scattered around Iraq…
Whoopie-dee-doo, I´m surprised not.
There was a war where such weapons were used, of course you´ll find a few hundred sprinkled here and there. For a casus belli this things would be almost as convincing as using those WWI shells Shodan and Scylla are harping about as a rational for an invasion to Germany today.
So… what´s the point of this?, pointing the obvious, what almost anyone with two braincells to rub together already suspected and gave for granted from well before the war started?
Let´s do a flash-back:
First item, as per se; nope the things found would only work (maybe) as a WMD if you lined up a bunch of people and spoon fed the goo insde the shells to them.
Second, I´m willing to bet Saddam didn´t give a rodent pattotie about this shells, and even if he wanted to hand them over he would probably had to look for them in the first place (“Comb the desert!”)
Third, read second; you were expecting the guy to declare in his posession an undetermined number of lost/unexploded/abandoned-god-knows-where artillery rounds? would you have belived him if he did?
Well, that only leaves the last possibility; as there aren´t any other explanations that must be it; don´t blame me, you gave the options.
LORD HELMET: No, you fool! We’re following orders. We were told to comb the desert, so we’re combing it. Found anything yet?
TROOPER WITH COMB: Nothing yet, sir.
LORD HELMET: How about you?
TROOPER WITH 2ND COMB: Not a thing, sir.
LORD HELMET: What about you guys?
TROOPER WITH MINI COMB: We ain’t found shit!!!"
-Spaceballs
And so the search of the weapons of mass destruction that the administration told us were being manufactured up to 2003 and were minutes away from killing thousands of Americans and allies continues…
