Thoughts on Fitna?

Has anyone been following Geert Wilders FITNA?


It’s good publicity for the film. But free speech is free speech.

As for the film itself, so far (07:00) it seems a little bit one-sided.

That’s not a trailer, it’s the film itself.

Here is the wiki for it. This is listed as the official site in the movie.

And boring.

Don’t worry, it will be far more interesting when the riots begin tomorrow evening.

When I click on that link here is what I get:

Fitna (film
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Just an FYI…no idea what this is about.

ETA: I think this is the link you are looking for.


From the Wiki article I linked to:

So…maybe no riots after all.


xtisme The second parenthese didn’t make it as part of the hyperlink. Fitna the Film on Wiki

[The Critic]That wasn’t a clip. That was the whole movie.[/The Critic]

I’m not crazy about the title. At least it wasn’t Gene Wilder who made it, which is how I first read it.

I am very interested to see what the aftermath of this is. I think it’s interesting that during the leadup to this film is started the debate about whether or not Free Speech in the West should be held hostage to the rioting of Muslims. It is unfortunate that NetSol thought that it should. We’ll see how this goes after the weekend. All of the responses from xtisme above, relate to the reactions of Muslims in the Netherlands. We’ll see how this plays on the streets of Khartoum, Ramallah and Karachi.

I find it disgusting that non-muslims have to live in constant fear of repercussion should they decide to criticize in any way this violent religion of hate. Yeah, yeah, there are peaceful muslims, but as an atheist, I have zero tolerance for violence in the name of what I see as a fairy tale. I think most everyone - atheist and follower of peaceful religion alike - can relate to that feeling in some way.

I also find it sickeningly ironic that pointing out the violent nature of islam is almost sure to incite violence or the threat of violence - all in the name of proving how non-violent they are, of course.

Well, I just watched the movie, all fifteen minutes of it. And Cisco has pointed out what is clever about this film. It doesn’t actually insult muslims anywhere, it just shows the evocative (and very one-sided) violent excesses of Islam fundamentalism.
So indeed, what’s a muslim who watches it to do? Shake an enraged fist, brandish a gun, burn a flag and call for violence? Then he would be only proving Wilder’s point.

Very clever. I got to give him that.

Of course, the film could be one big misunderstanding. I sometimes feel traditional Islam, when it is accused of being violent and intolerant, will feel proud and understood, rather then ashamed. It would be like some Iranian politician making a movie where Holland was ridiculed using clips of our annual Gay parade, pot-smoking kids, and feminist mouthy women. If we watched that movie, we’d go: “Well yeah, that’s us, in a one-sided way. Got anything against it?”
The movie is meant for westerners, not for the people in Karachi and Syria.

As for responses to the movie… so far, Dutch politicians have responded along the lines of “yeah, old video clips that add nothing new, don’t offer any solutions, and paint every muslim with a too wide brush of fundamentalism and terrorism” .

According to Dutch media, Dutch Muslim organizations have responded mainly with relief; they feel the movie" could have been so much worse" .

The film is not really very provocative at all - it’s just a collection of Youtube clips that anyone who masters some moviemaking software could have done in about a day or so. This means that there probably won’t be any Dutch embassies burning or extra harsh attacks on our fighting men & women in Afghanistan. Which is good.

I think the fact that the film is relatively mellow actually is sort of embarrassing for all those people who made such a fuss about it without even having seen it. Basically, Wilders said he was going to make a film about the Islam and then lots of people (like the PM and the ‘Terrorism Coordinator’ and some other men of state) went berserk and talked about forbidding it. This, of course, was also under the influence of footage shown on the news of angry people in Afghanistan burning our flag…

Anyway, this shows that, rather than getting all upset about this fool Wilders and his film, people should have ignored him.

I’m not sure about that. If the whole world had ignored Wilders, then yeah, it would have been safe to ignore him. But once news was out that Wilders would “make a film against Islam”, the cat was out of the bag. The usual fundie-government sponsored angry demonstrations on the streets of Jemen had to take place, with the usual flag-burning. and I feel our Dutch government has been very sensible in giving the message: we don’t like it anymore then you do, but we aren’t going to stop him either. We have been commended by a Danish professor for that, and all mainstream Arabic newschannels made sure to mention that fact.
One sadly amusing thing was that a few Egyptian government officials showed just how wide the cultural gap was, by saying 'What do you mean your government can’s stop Wilders from making that movie? Haven’t you people got police, jails?" “Um, yeah, but we’ve got this thing called freedom of expression, and…”
Another unintended funny remark was one islamic guy quoted in a magazine saying in a very frustrated tone that the west kept on insulting Islam, and that it was impossible for Islam to insult back in the same vein, because “Nothing is holy to you guys”. :slight_smile:

Thee whole dance around Fitna has been far more interesting then the film itself, and it has been masterfully orchestrestated by Wilders. I have to admit a kind of grudging respect for Wilders as a result.
This has been the first time that Dutch muslims and Dutch mainstream politics have shown an united front, and for that alone Wilders is responsible. Kudo’s where kudo’s are due.

We’ll see if there is rioting after tonight’s prayer services.

As for nothing being holy to us. Well, Freedom of Expression is pretty holy to us. :wink: And they often insult that.

The news so far: members of the Iranian parliament have expressed the desire to break off diplomatic relations with Holland. The Iranian government hasn’t yet made an offical declaration on their stance.

Indonesia, the former Dutch republic and mainly Islamic, said Holland shouldn’t open old wounds. And if you look at it as " Dutch MP insults religion of a country that has already suffered much as a result of the Dutch" they have a point. However, if you regard Fitna as first and foremost freedom of expression, the Indonesians should welcome the fact that the Dutch government no longer supresses inconvenient opinions.

Danish members of parliament have called the movie “a disgusting piece of propaganda” and compared it to nazi propaganda like “Der Ewige Jude.”
Apart from the fact that I seem increasingly irritated by such Godwinizations (Fitna also suggests Islam is a threat akin to nazism; it’s one or the more cringeworthy moments of the movie), it is a bit of an unfair comparison. Wilders’ movie is made from a selection of clips of stuff that actually happened and that Moslim spokespersons allowed to be filmed, or filmed and broadcast themselves. Fitna is certainly a very small portion of the truth, but so far I have caught the movie only at one lie.

(The lie in Fitna is the presentation of the growing number (statistics) of Muslims in the Netherlands. The number mentioned only holds up if you consider every Dutch citizen with one or more immigrant parents to be islamic. And that is silly. The official number of people for whom a non-christian religion is a core of their identity is lower then 4 % in the Netherlands.
The statistic where the number of muslims in the Netherlands is followed by an even larger column of " number of muslims in Europe" is a fine example of “lying with statistics” as the two stats have nothing in common. )

Interesting about the statistical lie.

However, Islamism and Nazism is not a very cringeworthy comparison. Some Islamists, and they are not an insignificant number, want to wipe the Jews away from Israel. This exists, and it’s all well and good to want to separate ‘the good ones’, but not at the expense of recognizing that there is a serious Islamic threat, that’s real and consists of many millions of people.

Western liberalism lives in terror of ethnic nationalism, and see any expression of ethnic nationalism on the part of a European to be reminiscent of Nazism, but if Western nations want to consider their western character and heritage as something valid to their existence, then a certain amount of ethnic nationalism is going to occur.

Looks like no riots. Hope you didn’t lose any money betting on that.

On further research, I did find an incident of pre-release flag burning, which does not a riot make, and a lawsuit against Wildersfor copyright violations.

When do Friday services end?