Thoughts on Framing out a Basement Room

Hi Everyone

I wanted to get some thoughts on something.

I am getting ready to build out a room in the basement and of course I will need to put in a bottom plate on the slab floor. I am a pretty handy guy, but I have an internal resistance to putting holes in my slab (for the anchors).

I saw a suggestion that for a non-load bearing wall, it should be sufficinet to attach the bottom plate with an appropriate construction adhesive like liquid nails. I was wondering what folks thought of this approach.

In general, what do people suggest? Just go with the ramset, or something more innovative/less damaging?

Thanks

I’d use the adhesive as well as some mechanical fasteners. If you have a ramset tool, use that. If not there are several alternatives.

Tapcon concrete screws work well as do old fashioned concrete nails.

BTW, if this happens to be intended as a bedroom, be sure the required window meets code.

What’s the aversion to anchoring the sill plate to the floor? Plan to move the wall any time soon? Like Gary suggested…I used a 22 caliber Ramset. Easy, fast, no muss, no fuss.
You could use adhesive, but you need to make sure it can withstand the force of nailing up studs, etc. You don’t want your wall scoochin’.

If you do want to move the wall later, you can cut the nails off at floor level. Probably just as easy as chipping up set glue.

Another thought…adhesive is probably more expensive than a Ramset and nails.

Yep - ramset it. It won’t hurt your foundation none unless it’s total shit, but then you’ve got much bigger problems.

I second this.

I’ll also add: modern masonry screws work very well if the holes you drill in the concrete are “nice and clean,” with minimal splitting and breakage in & around the hole. This necessitates the use of a good quality hammer drill. Do not use a $50 B&D hammer drill; use a $200 DeWalt or something similar. Trust me on this, as I made this mistake once. You also want to use high-quality masonry bits. Buy the best.

I know this is OT, but what’s your plan for doing the walls and floor? A couple years ago I fixed up our basement, and I have a lot to say about that topic.

I don’t trust liquid nails for something like that. When I finished my basement a couple of years ago I just used a hammer drill and anchored the walls in place.

I have framed in quite a few basements with radiant heated slabs. A fastener puncturing a water line is a major disaster so no fasteners are used in that application.

A properly applied construction adhesive like PL400 will be rock solid. I recommend sealing the concrete under the plate with thinned down white glue, this will encourage a good bond between the glue and concrete. Apply a generous amount of glue to the floor and stand the wall up in place. Plumb the wall and install some temporary wedges between the top plate and the joists to ensure a tight fit between the bottom plate and floor. The wall is built a quarter inch short to make standing it up easy and to avoid creaks in the upper floor. Do not install it tight to the joists, just fasten the top plate to the joist with framing nails or screws with a slight gap. It will probably be necessary to brace the bottom plate to keep it in place for a day until the glue sets. Remember to not apply glue at the door so that the sill plate can be easily cut out and removed when the glue has set.

Powder actuated fasteners are the standard tool with unheated slabs but glue works just fine and is cheap if you are uncomfortable with or do not want to rent the tools for concrete fasteners. If a glued down plate has to be removed it usually tears up a half inch of concrete with it!

Thanks for the input. In order:

Just for the record, I’ve done lots of successful projects, I have used a ramset, so I hope I don’t come off as a total novice. I guess I just feel wrong putting hole in my floor- like it’s inviting water in or something. That said, I’ve never had a drop of water in 12 years, so I know I am being irrational. The water would get in if it were there, so-to-speak.

Message received, get over it and use the Ramset (or do people actually prefer the Tapcons for some reason?)

Next comment: I agree, I stopped buying cheap tools after I burned up my first cheap drill years ago just building some storage shelves. In fact, the first tool I ever bought myself was a $30 9.6v drill, and I never made that mistake again. I’m pretty loyal to DeWalt and Milwaukee now.

The room will not be a bedroom. I have recently inherited a family (long story) and now I need to give up the office (making it a child’s bedroom). But since I work from home a lot, I am going to build an office/media room in the basement (I am also sick of fighting for the TV against Diego and a whole host of other programs I had never even heard of a year ago). So the basement room will have a couch, TV, large work desk, and my three pinball machines. Dark is actually good, so I will appreciate the lack of window.

Crafterman, I am happy to listen to any and all suggestions.

I am not concerned about water, the basement not only has 25 years history of being dry, it isn’t even damp. I am nonetheless wondering if I should do cement board up 3 feet which I understand to be code in some areas. The TV an pinballs will draw some juice, so I am planning two circuits, one for outlets (20A) and one for lighting (15A), even though that is overkill. But the house has 200A service and plenty of space in the panel.

I will have to work around the sanitary pipe, which runs along one of the to-be-finished walls. Since the cleanouts are on that wall, I am working on ways to leave access that will not be unattractive. Some kind of removeable wall section or something.

OK… this is turning into a broader topic, but that’s OK with me.

So here’s the story…

I recently built a home theater and wet bar in our basement. I started with a completely unfinished basement; nothing but concrete walls and concrete floor.

Even though I was planning on hiring a contractor to do most of the work involved with installing the walls and flooring, I wanted to make sure everything was “done right.” I first bought a book called Complete Basements by Stanley. I did not like the approach used in the book, so I did my own research - mainly on the Internet - and came up with an approach I believed was much better. I provided this information to my contractor, and made myself responsible for acquiring all the materials. He did all the construction type work (framing, drywall, flooring, etc.) while I did everything else (electric, plumbing, HVAC, insulation, ceiling, etc.). It worked out well.

Below is the approach I used for installing walls and flooring in our basement. The approach I used was not to try and stop water vapor from entering the basement; trying to stop water vapor from entering your basement (using coatings and thin vapor barriers) is basically a losing proposition, and can actually do more harm than good in the long run. The approach described below allows water vapor coming up through the concrete floor to be routed to the edges of the room, wherein it finds its way out and gets sucked up by the dehumidifier. I also chose materials that were minimally affected by moisture and did not promote mold growth.

These are just recommendations, and your mileage may vary depending on your circumstances. I also don’t have a stake in any of the products I used, so feel free to check out substitute materials. We live in Ohio, BTW:

1. If there are any water problems in your basement, fix those before installing walls and floors. This is very important. Do not cover up the problem or use “quick fix” techniques to try and fix it. We were fortunate in that there were no water problems in our basement.

2. Do not apply any kind of coating to the concrete walls or concrete floor. At best, a coating will do no good, and simply waste your money. At worst, a coating can create enough hydraulic pressure to crack the concrete. If a coating is already on the walls, don’t worry about it; just leave it there.

3. Vacuum the walls and floor. Apply caulk to cracks and crevices.

4. Install the subfloor first. The subfloor should go right up to the concrete walls, but you should leave a 1/8" gap between the flooring and concrete walls. Lay down the following, in order: a) Good quality landscaping material. b) DELTA®-FL plastic subfloor. c) ¾" AdvanTech® sheathing. d) Final floor material. Tape the seams in the DELTA®-FL using a tape approved by Cosella-Dörken. The “sandwich” created by the landscaping material, DELTA®-FL, and AdvanTech® should be secured to the concrete floor using flathead 1/4" X 2-1/4" Tapcon screws. Use approximately fifteen screws per 4’ X 8’ sheet of AdvanTech. You need to pre-drill the holes for each Tapcon using the correct masonry bit and a good hammer drill. (Have five or six masonry bits on hand, as they dull quickly.) At first I was using a cheap B&D hammer drill, and it was very difficult to drill the holes through the concrete. My contractor gave me a DeWalt to use, and it was a breeze. For best results, dip the threads of each Tapcon screw in caulk before driving it in.

5. For the walls, glue T&G sheets of extruded polystyrene insulation (a.k.a. “XPS” and DOW “Blue Board”) directly to the concrete walls. I would recommend using a thickness between 1 and 2 inches. Thicker insulation is better, obviously, but it also decreases your living space. We have a small basement, so I just went with 1-inch extruded polystyrene insulation. Make sure you use adhesive that is designed for polystyrene. And then you frame the walls with 2X4s. The 2X4s should go right up against the insulation. Install electric, plumbing, and 3.5" unfaced (i.e. no vapor barrier) insulation between the 2X4s. And then screw ½" DensArmor gypsum boards to the 2X4s. I went the extra step of screwing and gluing the DensArmor to the 2X4s. And then mud, primer and paint the walls. I used Sherwin-Williams products exclusively.

6. Install the final flooring material after the walls are completely finished. You can put down just about anything you want (carpet, tile, engineered hardwood, melamine laminate, etc.). In a basement, the only thing you should not put down is solid wood, e.g. ¾" oak. I put down an engineered hardwood floor. Each plank was 9/16" X 5". It looks great. This type of flooring is constructed with multiple plies of wood, with a top layer made of solid hardwood. The top layer is called the “wear layer.” If you go with this option, the most important variable is the thickness of the wear layer; the thicker the better, obviously. Most engineered hardwood floors have a 1 mm (or less) wear layer. I installed flooring that had a 4 mm wear layer. I found it on the Internet, and it was actually cheaper than flooring sold by Lowe’s w/ a 1 mm wear layer. If you install an engineered hardwood floor, make SURE you use the correct staples and staple gun. (Most staple guns are too big for engineered hardwood floors, and they end up splitting the wood. My contractor did not have the correct staple gun, so I ended up buying a staple gun from the online flooring retailer from whom I purchased the engineered hardwood floor.)

As mentioned, I hired out some of the work that I felt I was not capable of doing. I did the electric, plumbing, and HVAC, while I had a contractor do the floors and walls. He was a good guy, but like most contractors was “old school.” I did the research, and told him the way I wanted it done.

So here’s an easy one:

I will be enclosing the electrical panel inside a closet. I understand that it needs to be 30" wide (not nec. centered), 6’6" height, and 36" clearance in front. My question is, if the closet has a door, is that 36" measured with the door open or closed? That is, the door will be directly in front of the panel, so does the closet need to be 36" deep, or can it be less because with the door open there would be plenty of depth.

I hate to make such a large closet, but if I must…

The clearance is for permanent items; not an open door. It is just to guarantee that someone can access the panel easily. Give the municipality a call, they should be happy to answer.

I hesitate to recommend this method, but if all else fails…

I recently helped my nephew move into an old farmhouse with an unfinished basement, one of these you-fix-it-up deals. He wanted to frame three seperate rooms into an unfinished basement. And he was working with no money & minimal tools and resources. Our original plan for anchoring the bottom sills was to drive masonry nails through them into the concrete floor. As it happened, that didn’t work. The concrete was old, made with large river rock rather than pea gravel, and the masonry nails wouldn’t grab. Finally, we decided to frame up the wall in normal fashon…without securing the bottom plate at all. We cut the vertical end pieces and wall studs about 3/16" over length, so that they had to be driven into position with a heavy hammer, and when we finished, the wall was firmly wedged into place by the uprights. I don’t know how many pounds of pressure were exerted by the uprights, but it was considerable since the downward press had the weight of the entire upper floor resting on it. We hung sheetrock, hung interior doors, etc on it and it hasn’t moved an inch. If all else fails, just wedge your interior walls in place and call it good. Done properly, nothing short of an earthquake will move them.
SS

In most areas you can make a tiny closet with just enough room to cover the panel. When the door is open though you have to basically have enough room for someone to stand there and work on the panel (that’s your 30" x 36" x 6’6" requirement). They really want the area in front of the panel to be kept clear, so a tiny closet that can’t be used for storage is actually better than a 36" closet that people would stuff junk into.

While the NEC allows it, the fire department doesn’t like hidden panels. It makes their job more difficult when there is a fire and they need to cut the power for some reason.

Also make sure you check to see what local codes may apply in your area.

i agree that hiding an electrical panel is a bad idea for safety even if allowed in your area. there are trim packages for mating the front of a breaker box with a wall surface.

if you ‘had to’ hide the electrical panel, and it was allowed where you are, then you could put a door in the wall surface made of paneling material, just bigger than the box, trimmed with molding. that way it matches the room, isn’t disguised as a closet and appears like a utility access door; this makes it more noticeable as to purpose.