thoughts on 'Living in the Present'

Great Debates
1

My brother is always telling me to ‘live in the present’. We had a discussion about it today, and I was wondering if I could get some people’s opinions on the subject. To me it sounds awfully similar to what a lobotomy does. However, meditation is very related to ‘living in the present’ as well, and this would reflect a more ‘contemplative’ experience of the present (if that’s possible).

The lobotomy viewpoint sounds like a lower state of consciousness, while meditation is takes you to a higher state of consciousness. How can the one and only present lead us in 2 different directions?

From Wikipedia…
“Howard Dully had a lobotomy at 12, after his stepmother was simply tired of his “youthful defiance”. At the age of 56 he said, “I’ve always felt different – wondered if something’s missing from my soul. I have no memory of the operation”. Late in his life, Dully uncovered the story of his lobotomy. Crown Publishers published Howard Dully’s memoir (co-written by Charles Fleming), My Lobotomy [1], in September 2007.”

Also see Meditation - Wikipedia

2

[QUOTE=petew83]
My brother is always telling me to ‘live in the present’. We had a discussion about it today, and I was wondering if I could get some people’s opinions on the subject. To me it sounds awfully similar to what a lobotomy does. However, meditation is very related to ‘living in the present’ as well, and this would reflect a more ‘contemplative’ experience of the present (if that’s possible).

The lobotomy viewpoint sounds like a lower state of consciousness, while meditation is takes you to a higher state of consciousness. How can the one and only present lead us in 2 different directions?
[/QUOTE]
Well, how different are they, really ? And to the extent they are different, where’s the evidence that meditation IS a “higher state” of consciousness ? I could claim that’s it’s a lower state or just a different state with as much justification.

Meditation does have two important differences; it is consensual, and can be stopped at will. Not at all like lobotomizing a 12 year old.

3

[QUOTE=petew83]
My brother is always telling me to ‘live in the present’. We had a discussion about it today, and I was wondering if I could get some people’s opinions on the subject. To me it sounds awfully similar to what a lobotomy does. However, meditation is very related to ‘living in the present’ as well, and this would reflect a more ‘contemplative’ experience of the present (if that’s possible).

The lobotomy viewpoint sounds like a lower state of consciousness, while meditation is takes you to a higher state of consciousness. How can the one and only present lead us in 2 different directions?

From Wikipedia…
“Howard Dully had a lobotomy at 12, after his stepmother was simply tired of his “youthful defiance”. At the age of 56 he said, “I’ve always felt different – wondered if something’s missing from my soul. I have no memory of the operation”. Late in his life, Dully uncovered the story of his lobotomy. Crown Publishers published Howard Dully’s memoir (co-written by Charles Fleming), My Lobotomy [1], in September 2007.”

Also see Meditation - Wikipedia
[/QUOTE]

I don’t know about lobotomies, I think they are cruel and inhuman. But meditation is not living in the present. Meditation is reaching for an alternate state of mind in which thought is pure. Living in the present is focusing on the present as you go about your daily routine. Being more aware of what you are doing and why you are doing it. It is great if you worry a lot about the past or the future, because you must gently bring your mind to focus of the task at hand.

“Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.”

4

Living in the present seems profoundly foolish to me. The secret to so much of life is deferred gratification–work and save now so that you can buy a house later, maintain your car so that it won’t wear out so soon, practice dull scale exercises today so that you can enjoy producing beautiful music tomorrow. I can’t think of many things that would be more destructive of a fulfilling life than always living in the present.

5

Whap!

Simba: Ouch! What did you do that for?

Rafiki: It doesn’t matter; it’s in the past!

6

I have been trying to “live in the present” as in paying attention to what I am doing now. I hope that’s what you’re brother is talking about. When I’m with the kids I’m paying full attention to them not half listening and planning the rest of the day in my head. If I’m on vacation I am enjoying the scenery and the sunshine, not thinking of what is waiting for me when we get home. It helps the good times last longer and be more memorable. It less often seems like time has flown by and I missed something.

I hope your brother isn’t talking about acting as if there is no future and not having any plans for one. That would be stupid.

7

[QUOTE=lekatt]
Meditation is reaching for an alternate state of mind in which thought is pure. Living in the present is focusing on the present as you go about your daily routine. Being more aware of what you are doing and why you are doing it. It is great if you worry a lot about the past or the future, because you must gently bring your mind to focus of the task at hand.
[/QUOTE]

I don’t think there’s one absolute definition to what meditation is, or is meant to be. There are a wide range of different kinds of meditation, each with a different methodology and aim. It could be rather easily argued that zen meditation is about directly experiencing the present moment in the way that you describe being present in the daily routine. That is one of the reasons that repetitive labor is included on a daily basis in Zen monasteries. Zen meditation isn’t intended to be separate from the daily experience of living, it is intended as practice for daily living. If you sit down on a regular basis and practice bringing your attention to the present, it stands to reason that when you are moving about at the grocery store, driving to work, whatever, that you will naturally slip into that sense of present awareness.

[QUOTE=petew]
The lobotomy viewpoint sounds like a lower state of consciousness, while meditation is takes you to a higher state of consciousness. How can the one and only present lead us in 2 different directions?
[/QUOTE]

In order for this argument to work, we would need evidence that meditation and the lobotomy are having the same neurological effect on a given person. This is extremely unlikely. Lobotomies destroy brain tissue, more or less at random but as far as I understand the damage would tend to be focused on the frontal lobes. Meditation apparently does not cause brain damage or severe personality changes or impairment of motor functions or destruction of the ability to process emotions.

If you’re asking the question on a practical level, I must admit I’ve never had a lobotomy, but I find life to be infinitely more satisfying now that I am more firmly rooted in the present moment. I can’t imagine it would be the same for everyone, but some people live in a self-created nightmare of past fixation and future anticipation, and meditation can be very helpful in learning to discern and dissociate from destructive thought patterns and emotional reactions. Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, a kind of psychotherapy with a great deal of scientific evidence to support its effectiveness, employs many of these tenets with great success.

[QUOTE=Freddy the Pig]
Living in the present seems profoundly foolish to me. The secret to so much of life is deferred gratification–work and save now so that you can buy a house later, maintain your car so that it won’t wear out so soon, practice dull scale exercises today so that you can enjoy producing beautiful music tomorrow. I can’t think of many things that would be more destructive of a fulfilling life than always living in the present.
[/QUOTE]

Delaying gratification (i.e. practicing dull scale exercises) in no way contradicts living in the present moment. Nobody suggested all rationality and logic be thrown out the window. The essential argument is that taking with gratitude each and every moment out of those dull scale exercises is a lot more satisfactory than doing it while thinking, ‘‘Shit, this really sucks.’’

8

[QUOTE=Freddy the Pig]
Living in the present seems profoundly foolish to me. The secret to so much of life is deferred gratification–work and save now so that you can buy a house later, maintain your car so that it won’t wear out so soon, practice dull scale exercises today so that you can enjoy producing beautiful music tomorrow. I can’t think of many things that would be more destructive of a fulfilling life than always living in the present.
[/QUOTE]

I’m afraid that’s how some people do interpret it, and I agree it’s foolish - to an extent. I mean, making yourself miserable working an 90 hour week to save for a third vacation home you never have time to visit, or the pension you never draw on because you die of heart failure at 55 also seem rather foolish. There’s that “moderation” thing again.

The way I try to moderate it is to spend some time and make plans and put things into motion for the future, and then to stop dwelling on it*. Procure a decent job, set up a direct deposit and investment account, and then stop worrying. The future will come of it’s own accord, the past is unchangeable. Go to work, enjoy your friends and family, and live in the present which you’ve set up so that the future is as secure as it can be.

And while you’re doing that, yes, be present. Listen to people talk all the way, not with half your mind planning what you’ll say next and is this person liking you and is someone else eating the last slice of pizza… Enjoy your weekend with your kids without letting your Monday morning loom over you (and them) the whole time. Strike up a conversation in line instead of internally (or externally) fretting about how long this is taking.

Plan for the future, *live *in the present.

*And if anyone figures out how to accomplish this, please email me your secret! :smiley:

9

[QUOTE=Freddy the Pig]
Living in the present seems profoundly foolish to me. The secret to so much of life is deferred gratification–work and save now so that you can buy a house later, maintain your car so that it won’t wear out so soon, practice dull scale exercises today so that you can enjoy producing beautiful music tomorrow. I can’t think of many things that would be more destructive of a fulfilling life than always living in the present.
[/QUOTE]

I figure that “living in the present” does not mean “don’t plan for the future.” Instead it means, “focus on appreciating the things you do now instead of abandoning anything that isn’t fun.”

So, it’s not about quitting piano because practice is hard, it’s about finding satisfaction and joy in practicing.

10

[QUOTE=lekatt]
I don’t know about lobotomies, I think they are cruel and inhuman.
[/QUOTE]
I’m impressed by your ability to have an opinion on something you don’t know about.

“Living in the present” is just one of those common sense ideas that get phrased catchily and then beamed around the place until someone ignores it. Apparently, see, some people think only in terms of far ahead, and don’t enjoy the present, right? I know, shock. And they should, like, live in the present. Unless they’re living in the present too much, in which case they need to plan for the future. Dude.

11

You can check out the teachings of Thich Nhat Hanh:

From 14 Mindfulness Trainings:

12

[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold]
I’m impressed by your ability to have an opinion on something you don’t know about.

“Living in the present” is just one of those common sense ideas that get phrased catchily and then beamed around the place until someone ignores it. Apparently, see, some people think only in terms of far ahead, and don’t enjoy the present, right? I know, shock. And they should, like, live in the present. Unless they’re living in the present too much, in which case they need to plan for the future. Dude.
[/QUOTE]

Living in the present is an ancient spiritual teaching. Been around for thousands of years, it can product some very beneficial results including healing. It dovetails and illustrates many other spiritual teachings. If you knew the teachings and reasons behind them you would understand.

13

[QUOTE=lekatt]
Living in the present is an ancient spiritual teaching. Been around for thousands of years, it can product some very beneficial results including healing. It dovetails and illustrates many other spiritual teachings. If you knew the teachings and reasons behind them you would understand.
[/QUOTE]
Apparently, after several years, you still haven’t caught on to this, so I’ll do you a solid and make a suggestion that will help you in the rest of your posting career.

Whenever you make one of your definitive statements about souls, or how the brain works, or any of the rest of your mystical ancient wisdom, but before you click “Submit”, just pretend that a little man sitting next to you pipes up and says, “Cite?” in a loud, high-pitched voice. (Alternatively, pretend that John Cleese has said, “Explain the logic underlying that conclusion, please”.) Then go ahead and type in your evidence or explicating information before you submit.

That way, it won’t look like you’re just talking out of your ass all the time.

(I know I said I wouldn’t address you again because of your willful ignorance and dishonesty – but I’m a big believer in second, third, and (in this case) hundred-and-forty-fifth chances.)

As to the OP: Interesting topic. Humans are (as far as we know) the only animals who spend a lot of time thinking about the past and imagining possible futures – worrying about bad things that might happen, or dreaming about good things we want to happen. That’s a gift, and without it we’re just another animal reacting to whatever stimulus comes up – but if you do it too much, the past and future will keep you from ever enjoying your present. As with so many things in life, I guess it’s about finding a balance: learning from the past, planning for the future, but being really involved in your here-and-now reality.

14

[QUOTE=Freddy the Pig]
Living in the present seems profoundly foolish to me. The secret to so much of life is deferred gratification–work and save now so that you can buy a house later, maintain your car so that it won’t wear out so soon, practice dull scale exercises today so that you can enjoy producing beautiful music tomorrow. I can’t think of many things that would be more destructive of a fulfilling life than always living in the present.
[/QUOTE]

bolding mine

living in the present doesn’t mean you have no goals or are ignorant of the effect todays actions might have on future events.

15

[QUOTE=Baldwin]
Apparently, after several years, you still haven’t caught on to this, so I’ll do you a solid and make a suggestion that will help you in the rest of your posting career.

Whenever you make one of your definitive statements about souls, or how the brain works, or any of the rest of your mystical ancient wisdom, but before you click “Submit”, just pretend that a little man sitting next to you pipes up and says, “Cite?” in a loud, high-pitched voice. (Alternatively, pretend that John Cleese has said, “Explain the logic underlying that conclusion, please”.) Then go ahead and type in your evidence or explicating information before you submit.

That way, it won’t look like you’re just talking out of your ass all the time.

(I know I said I wouldn’t address you again because of your willful ignorance and dishonesty – but I’m a big believer in second, third, and (in this case) hundred-and-forty-fifth chances.)

As to the OP: Interesting topic. Humans are (as far as we know) the only animals who spend a lot of time thinking about the past and imagining possible futures – worrying about bad things that might happen, or dreaming about good things we want to happen. That’s a gift, and without it we’re just another animal reacting to whatever stimulus comes up – but if you do it too much, the past and future will keep you from ever enjoying your present. As with so many things in life, I guess it’s about finding a balance: learning from the past, planning for the future, but being really involved in your here-and-now reality.
[/QUOTE]

If I gave any cites, they would have to be whole books on the subject, and I have done this already, I have also provided many, many cites to back up what I say. I can’t help it if they are not read or laughed at. Now you don’t understand the principle of living in the present either, but if you would practice it for a while maybe you would.

16

[QUOTE=WhyNot]

Plan for the future, *live *in the present.

*And if anyone figures out how to accomplish this, please email me your secret! :smiley:
[/QUOTE]

Darn you, Whynot! I read through that whole post hoping you were going to tell me the secret and it turns out you don’t know either.

I’ll keep searching. Hopefully, I’ll find it before I “die of heart failure at 55”.

ETA: I’ve been doing the delayed gratification thing for over 30 years. I hate to tell ya’ll this but, it stays delayed. You never quite get there if you allow everyone attached to you heap on the responsibilities.

17

[QUOTE=lekatt]
If I gave any cites, they would have to be whole books on the subject, and I have done this already, I have also provided many, many cites to back up what I say. I can’t help it if they are not read or laughed at. Now you don’t understand the principle of living in the present either, but if you would practice it for a while maybe you would.
[/QUOTE]

Can you at least link us to other threads where you’ve presented these cites, or mention some book titles or something? Otherwise, why post in this thread? Your entire first post comes off as very “neener-neener..I have a SEEcret, and you don’t know about it, it’s the perfect answer for the OP, but it’s all mine, la-la-la!”

As I said in my post, if anyone has the secret - not of what living in the present means, but how to do it consistently - * I’d* love to hear it. I’m getting there, but it takes an awful lot of self-reminding and starting over again on a daily, or sometimes hourly, basis. Can’t speak for anyone else, of course.

And on that topic, I have to agree with Baldwin. You and I actually agree on a whole lot of spiritual matters, from everything I’ve read from you. And while I don’t talk about it much, I do post about it some, and I’ve never received the grief you have for it. The only difference I can see is that I’m aware enough to post that my ideas are my ideas, my Truths are my Truths. I find them helpful for me in my own universe, but other people create their universes (I think) and there’s no reason that the Truths I’ve unearthed apply to them. They might, or they might not. But I’ve not had conversations with anyone else’s gods or Higher Selves, so I only have the information my god has given me. And She and I don’t waste our time talking about other people, We talk about me, mostly.

Hell, if we can’t all use the same deodorant stick with equal effectiveness, why would we all be able to use the same spiritual Truths with equal effectiveness?

So yeah, if you want to reach people instead of alienating them, you might try owning your own thoughts. Use “I” statements some. It’s part of living mindfully and in the present, you know. Of course, that right there is my truth - owning my ideas (even if they’re not original to me) works for me, and phrasing things in “I believe” or “I’ve found this helpful” gets me the audience and reception I want here on this message board. It might or might not work for you, of course, just like everything else.

18

Living in the present means something much different to me that meditation. Living in the present seems to indicate a desire to experience what you can as soon as you can, not really looking out for long term goals, and mainly just surface pleasures.

Meditation seems to indicate a desire to see where you are at a moment of time, where you are on your journey. Yes it can mean more then that, but in the context of living in the present that is the relationship I get.

As for the lobotomy I don’t really see a strong relationship between destroying a person’s emotions and the above.

19

[QUOTE=kanicbird]
Living in the present means something much different to me that meditation. Living in the present seems to indicate a desire to experience what you can as soon as you can, not really looking out for long term goals, and mainly just surface pleasures.

[/QUOTE]
Some people take it that way but in a “Be Here Now” way it does not have to mean that. IMO it means making the most of the moment you’re in, not only in a superficial pleasures way but in an adult responsible for your choices way. Recognizing our choices have consequences we chop wood, maintain the car, practice the piano, or laugh and sing, take a walk, or whatever. We try to not let regrets of the past or worries and attachments to an unknown future rob us of the enjoyment of the present.

Stop and smell the flowers etc.

20

[QUOTE=olivesmarch4th]
In order for this argument to work, we would need evidence that meditation and the lobotomy are having the same neurological effect on a given person. This is extremely unlikely. Lobotomies destroy brain tissue, more or less at random but as far as I understand the damage would tend to be focused on the frontal lobes. Meditation apparently does not cause brain damage or severe personality changes or impairment of motor functions or destruction of the ability to process emotions.
[/QUOTE]

I want to clarify something about this statement of mine. I was referring to the half-assed sort of lobotomy where someone shoves a pick-like instrument into your eye socket and wiggles it around with abandon. I am aware there are more delicate and focused sorts of lobotomies aimed at helping with seizures and other sorts of neuropsychological issues. Howard Dully had the former kind of lobotomy, so I was dressing the OPs point from that perspective.

[QUOTE=lekatt]
Living in the present" is just one of those common sense ideas that get phrased catchily and then beamed around the place until someone ignores it. Apparently, see, some people think only in terms of far ahead, and don’t enjoy the present, right? I know, shock. And they should, like, live in the present. Unless they’re living in the present too much, in which case they need to plan for the future. Dude.
[/QUOTE]

I think (as in, it is my opinion) that this attitude is too readily dismissive of the issue. ‘‘Living in the Present’’ can be a watered-down, new-agey catchphrase that features a host of people trying to find the ‘‘Zen’’ in their daily cappuccino, but it can also be way more than that. For many it is a religion, something monks have been serious about for at least 1500 years, to the extent that they sit there in their monk huts all day and all night long doing nothing else but getting better at directly experiencing the present moment. There are scores and scores of spiritual texts dedicated to the practice. That is the whole point, in all those Zen parables, of monks getting thwacked with a big stick – their Master’s way of saying, ‘‘Hey! Pay attention to the present moment!’’ However, your average Zen Master would probably say this issue is pointless to debate – the only way to understand is to sit down and practice.

That is probably what lekatt was talking about. That there are spiritual traditions, texts and kinds of meditation that devote themselves to the rigorous practice of living in the present moment is explicit fact.

[QUOTE=Mindfulness wiki]
Mindfulness (Pali: Sati; Sanskrit:smṛti स्मृति ) is a technique in which a person becomes intentionally aware of their thoughts and actions in the present moment, non-judgmentally. It plays a central role in Buddhism, with Right Mindfulness (Pali:sammā-sati; Sanskritsamyak-smṛti) being the seventh element of the Noble Eightfold Path, the sadhana of which is held in the tradition to engender insight and wisdom.
[/QUOTE]

What is not fact, but rather a matter of opinion, is the impact that this practice may have on a given person’s sense of personal happiness. What we do know, however, is that mindfulness as described above has been successfully used in therapeutic contexts:

[QUOTE=Dialectical Behavioral Therapy Wiki]
Dialectical behavioral therapy (DBT.) is a psychosocial treatment developed by Marsha M. Linehan [1] specifically to treat individuals with borderline personality disorder. While DBT was designed for individuals with borderline personality disorder, it is used for patients with other diagnoses as well.

The treatment itself is based largely in behaviorist theory with some cognitive therapy elements as well. Unlike cognitive therapy it incorporates mindfulness practice as a central component of the therapy.
[/QUOTE]

But to say that meditation = living in the present moment is disingenuous. There are many different kinds of meditation. Mindfulness is about the present moment, there are meditations aimed at cultivating one’s sense of compassion, meditations for concentration, transcendental meditations, etc. The mindfulness meditation of Buddhism, particularly shikantaza of Zen Buddhism would be the specific practice I consider to be explicitly focused on learning to live in the present moment.