Thoughts on Revenge of the Sith (unboxed spoilers)

Cafe Society
81

No, that’s not how story-telling works. If it turns out to be a mistake, then it has to be pointed out somewhere as a mistake, otherwise it’s unclear whether it’s the writer’s mistake or not.

Another example, if a character in Star Wars says “We’re traveling at the speed of light,” when obviously that would not be fast enough to get them where they are going (hypothetical example, althought “light speed” if it really means 1c is too slow), then one just thinks the screenwriter didn’t know what he was talking about.

82

I think the problem is assuming that “stronger” is measured entirely in one’s ability to fight well. It’s natural that the Dark Jedi have better combat skills, since they don’t do much besides killing. The Jedi, however, use their abilities for a lot of other things: healing, watching the future, diplomacy, and collecting knowledge, for example. Movies about Jedi doing normal Jedi things would be dull–few people want to see Obi-Wan sent to Raltiir to organise a relief effort–which is why it seems that all Jedi do is fight.

When you have an organisation (the Sith) that is so volatile that it can only have two members (a master and apprentice struggling for power), I don’t think it can be called “strong” in comparison to an order that protected the Republic for so long.

83

Plus after such a downer of a movie, you need a bit of hope at the end.

Loved the movie.

84

Oh hell. I woke up my son I was laughing so hard at this. He came in “Dad whats so funny?”

I had to minimize the window.

ROFLMAO…

Thanks, that made my day.

85

Yes, I’m 100% serious. I simply don’t understand why people hold up the dialogue and acting of the original trilogy. The prequals were not that much worse, and RotS I consider equal to the originals in those qualities. Mark Hamill was utter dreck in the Luke role (he just didn’t have a romance so you would have seen his failings to a greater degree). The original trilogy was far more action-y than Ep 1 & 2. McGregor and McDiarmid were better than any acting in the originals. The dialog was cheesy and hamfisted in the originals.

I think you are overrating the originals, which, really, were not good filmmaking. On a filmmaking level, compared to a modern movie trilogy, I’d compare it with the “Mummy” flicks. Super fun, but not great filmmaking. The think about Star Wars is that it captures us because of the ultimate good v. evil fight with the Force as the mysticism that draws us in.

Dialogue and acting wise? Not much better than the prequals and not that much better than RotS at all.

86

No kidding. I mean everyone knows that every single planet has only a single type of ecosystem. The concept of having tall trees and an ocean? Inconceivable! :wink:

Although based on stuff in KOTOR and Star Wars Galaxies (Kashyyk is in the new expansion), I think the “deadly forest floor” is one of those broken toys Zahn talked about in Ezekiel25:17’s post.

87

Yeah, very forced. The characters say it, but it’s hard to feel it.

Yes, totally not credible. He says “What have I done!” when he chops off Mace’s hand, but the struggle ends there. Dumb.

Excellent point.

Yeah, as when his finger nails were scraping against the Senate Pod–“Use the Force, Yoda!” I mean, really. Suddenly Yoda is defeated, he’s running away. I didn’t understand why. You’ve got to show that stuff, George.

Yeah, my feelings exactly. I’ll post my overall impression in a bit.

88

Okay, this one rocked. Totally.

Yes the dialogue is still crappy in places; that’s a Lucas signature.

Yes, there was definitely some chemistry lacking between characters; see above.

Yes, it was visually stunning; again, see above.

We all know that most of the cast are fine, if not great performers (check out Hayden Christensen’s meltdown in Shattered Glass if you doubt this young man’s thespian abilities), so once again, Lucas’ ham-handed directing is the reason, IMO, that we have such stilted performances. Still they were an improvement over Eps. I & II. And if anyone ever saw much of Farscape, they know we definitely missed some good bits with Wayne Pygram as Tarkin!

McGregor definitely emotes as Anakin slides inexorably towards his doom.

The betrayal and extermination of the Jedi was chock full of pathos; for me, it was the second most heart-wrenching scene in the movie.

Once again, R2-D2 steals the show; or if not, gets a lot more audience reaction than many of the main characters. I loved his “hopping” out of the fighters. To hell with the Skywalker clan; these movies are about R2-D2! :smiley:

Actually, most of the funniest bits were with the droids, especially the battle droid’s panicky, arm-flailing running-in-circles, and their interaction with R2.

The banter between Anakin and Obi-Wan at the beginning (Palpatine’s rescue) was pretty good, too.

All-in-all, I can’t say Lucas “redeemed” himself with this movie; but he definitely went a long way towards “coming back” to The Light Side.

89

Yeah, that seemed weak to me.

90

No, I think Speaker for the Dead nailed it. The Sith may be (slightly) better suited to one-on-one combat, but that’s an awfully narrow criterion for deciding that the Dark Side is “stronger.” Just how strong can you really be if you’re forever being betrayed by your master, or killed-in-your-sleep/thrown-off-a-ledge by your apprentice?

And why aren’t we counting Windu? Not to put too fine a point on it, but he fucked up Palpatine pretty good. Maybe the Emperor just took a dive to get Annakin to join him, but it seems awfully risky, and I think it’s more plausible that he really got beaten.

91

Yeah, there were more than just a couple situations in this movie where a simple force jump could have saved a lot of trouble.

I was pleased with the film, overall. The dialogue wasn’t terrible, but it wasn’t really good. I think it was utilitarian in that it exposed the story and nothing more. Even so, Ewan MacGregor did an awesome job. Obiwan and Yoda made this movie.

And lines like, “if you’re not with me, you’re my enemy” were none too subtle, of course, but it never occurred to me until I read this thread again just how much palpatine could have been manipulating things, setting up the Jedi as assasins and such. He had them right where he wanted them.

My biggest disappointment, though, was with the vaderfication of Anakin. I thought his injuries would be more thorough and deep; as in he would have been partially immersed in the lava, and volcanic gases and such had scorched his lungs making it necessary for him to breathe like that. Then the medical procedures just had him writhing around while they grafted new limbs and then clad him in fetish leather. I was hoping they’d be more invasive, having to replace organs and completely permeate his being. It all struck me as too “clean.”

Even though I wasn’t too happy with that, one of the most effective things in the movie was from Anakin’s point of view when his vision went from blurry to clear just as that mask was being placed over his face. I thought that was really powerful: it reflected the “what have I done” in that it was dawning realization interrupted by something else.

At any rate, what the hell was up with Obi-wan’s parrot lizard? That thing was just bizarre.

92

Overall, very good. I think I was most impressed by the scope and complexity of Palpatine’s deceit. He got everyone. Fooled the Senators, the trade federation dopes, the Jedi (whose vanity he described quite well), Anakin, everybody. Before he switched into hammy, gross mode, Ian McDiarmid did some very good, subtle evil acting. The scene where he talked about killing his old master was the high point for me. I agree with the OP about Christopher Lee’s face at the end of the duel, and I did notice the two ‘apprentices’ fighting in front of Palpatine. Nice job of echoing the original films. (Incidentally, there was one line - one out of three movies - where Padme said something and I thought “oh, she actually sounds like Leia’s mom there.” I think it was at the end of her scene with Obi-Wan, does anyone else know what I’m thinking of?)

I can’t say this makes all the crap in the last two movies worth it, and this one was not without its share of clunky moments. But for the most part it rose to the occasion, and that’s something I didn’t think Lucas was capable of.

93

No one is arguing here that Episodes I and II were any good. So I doubt my argument here will be very controversial.

The story arc across the three trilogies is all wrong.

It’s not just that Ep I & II sucked as movies, they also wasted story-telling space in the whole trilogy. Contrariwise, Ep III had too much stuffed into it. Lucas totally blew it. He wasn’t even close to being on the reservation. And he thereby wasted a great story-telling chance.

How it should have been done.

Ep I would should have been about Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon in the “good old days” of the Republic. Annikin should have been a minor character. Not the slave of a monster, not the subject of a prophecy, not the product of a virgin birth–just a very talented Jedi teenager in whom Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan gradually take a special but normal interest. Keep/it/simple/stupid.

The plot should be about a believable Sith resurgence/invasion. None of this childish BS about “only two there be, master and apprentice.” The Sith should be what the EU said they were: an advanced, evil civilization that the Jedi once defeated, and who once had their own empire separate from that of the Republic. It’s a good background story, use it.

Palpatine can continue to infiltrate the Republic, as he has. Qui-Gon can still die in Ep I, leaving Obi-Wan to train Annikin.

I always thought the Clone Wars were wars the Republic fought against Clones. That’s what the name would indicate, wouldn’t it? I haven’t enjoyed the whole clone setup in the prequels at all. I think it would be better to have the Sith create the clones to attack the Republic, or perhaps have a third force (maybe even Separatists) use the clones to attack the Republic with the Sith entering as surprise players. The whole idea of battle droid armies was a terrible idea from the beginning and totally violated the spirit of the original trilogy!

At any rate, Ep I ends just before the Clone Wars start in full. What’s different? Annikin is a teenager, and there will be one movie that is just Clone Wars instead of one movie that just barely shows the beginning and one that shows the end (i.e., the actual films).

In the new Ep II, the focus is on Obi-Wan and Annikin in the Clone Wars. Here Annikin can start to turn–gradually–to the Dark Side by taking an interest in Sith teachings, feeling the power of the Dark Side and using it effectively in battle, etc. Delicious ambiguity could be gotten by seeing him use the Dark Side for good at first… but then gradually becoming seduced. Elements of the current Ep III would naturally fall back into the new Ep II.

The new Ep III would be more or less the same movie, but done more maturely and credibly.

I liked the movie. It was neato eye-candy and there was some good action. People talk about the bad dialog, but I think that’s letting Lucas off easy. The situations are poorly conceived on the pyschological and theatrical levels–no dialog good or bad can save them.

Overall, you can’t judge the movies separately because of the story arc problem. Overall, the story is childish, ill-conceived, and really quite foolish. Lucas screwed the pooch.

In contrast, with Ep IV and V you have a truly great story arc that makes up for, yeah, some crappy dialog and a mediocre Hamill screen presence. Ep VI is a pretty execrable piece of work, but still the story arc was fully functional. That’s why the OT transcends its flaws.

94

Can’t argue. They still had Anakin wrong, but in this movie he came closer to being right. Still too childish and petulant, and in II they brought out his murderousness so quickly - and then had Padme just ignore it. That was a huge problem for me. But they got closer, and times in this movie they did get it right. He was manipulated, he was greedy, he wanted control… those were all correct.

I understand you’re thinking, but that doesn’t work. For an arc of three movies, you need to have a central character, and as the character who changed, grew up, learned about the Force and all that, Anakin was it in this series. In the last series it was Luke, obviously. You can’t put the hero of your epic on the sidelines for one-third of the story. It would have been like making Empire and Jedi about Chewbacca, or The Two Towers and Return of the King about Gimli. If you take my meaning. You need to get your hero out there, otherwise you’ve wasted a whole movie on exposition and introducing other things which are less important.

95

Now that you explain it, I think you’re right. I think it’s hard to stretch this story across three movies. I think it’s a two-fer.

Or maybe Anakin as youth-to-teen/pre-Clone, Clone Wars, Seduction would work. I am confident about my plan for Ep II and III, Ep I is the trickiest.

Maybe a Sith resurgence/defeat in Ep I, Palpatine’s infiltration and Clone Wars in Ep II, and Sidious emerging/Anakin falling in Ep III.

96

That may be right. I do like some of your ideas, especially Anakin not being a cute little kid. There were elements moving in the background of the first two movies, ominous things like Palpatine securing power, that got obscured by stupid, cute things.

How about this scheme: in the first movie, you get the political maneuverings and stuff, but Anakin is only a kid for part of the story. Skip all the pod race and winning the freedom crap, that was just a setup for video games. The angst of having him separated from his mother, still a big deal. The age gap with Padme, which they never resolved (I guess she just ages way slower??), less of an issue. He’s prophesied to be The Chosen One and is angsty about it. We can watch the flaws develop in his personality. We know who he’s going to turn into, so if you start hinting that he’ll go bad sooner, it’s not a problem.

97

I left the theater with an overwhelming sensation of “meh.” While Lucas absolutely nailed certain parts, they were outweighed by some pretty horrific errors. To wit:

-Sure, the battle scenes were pretty, but they were so damn busy. So much stuff moving around in frame that you couldn’t actually focus on what the hell was going on. Compare this to the Battle of Hoth: you rarely see more than a single AT-AT and some tiny snowspeeders in any given wide shot, but the lack of busy-ness actually makes it easier to follow the primary action onscreen.

-The lightsaber battles were very disappointing, primarily due to the cinematography, which consisted almost exclusively of cramped shots in which the action was obscured (again) by the business of the close-range lightsaber flashes. Compare this to the Darth Maul duel in Episode 1, which interspersed wide shots to give a sense of the surroundings.

-There is still ZERO chemistry between Anakin and Natalie Portman… errr… Padme (and don’t get me started on the awful dialogue). I’ve heard the argument that the original trilogy’s lead actors weren’t that great either, but I’m not sure I buy it. There was a sense of genuine camaraderie between Luke, Leia, and Han that is completely absent in the monotone exchanges between Anakin and Padme.

-General Grievous: the most pointless villain of both trilogies. Why bother introducing a brand-new character if you’re only going to kill him off halfway through the movie with no development whatsoever? Oh, right, because Count Dooku action figures don’t sell as well as the Coughing Chicken Cyborg from Hell.

-Speaking of which, why the hell was he coughing, anyway? Well, apparently, this is something explained in the Clone Wars television series. Okay, great, at least a reason exists. Nonetheless, it is completely inexcusable to make such a big deal of Grievous’ physical condition in the film without ever once explaining how it occured OR having it play a role of some sort. As it is, Grievous just comes off as having nearly as annoying of a voice as Jar Jar Binks.

-Wrapping up half the plot threads in the last 5 minutes of the film was a really bad idea. It’s like Lucas wrote the entire movie, then realized, “Oh damn, I forgot to explain why Leia lives on Alderaan, Threepio doesn’t remember the Lars family, Obi-wan can come back from the dead, and Yoda goes to Dagobah. Better tack on some exposition.”

-Vader screaming “NOOOOOOOOOO!!!” (complete with outstretched Arms of Angst) is just terrible.

Now to be fair, there were plenty of things I enjoyed, as well. After all, when all is said and done, I did enjoy ROTS far more than either of its predecessors. So, the positives:

-Palpatine’s seduction of Anakin was generally well-done, although I thought the actual “turning” went too quickly. The scene at the opera was particularly well done.

-Ewan MacGregor shows time and time again why he is by far the best actor in the prequel trilogies.

-The droid jokes are, for the most part, actually funny this time around (Artoo taking down the droids, Artoo getting kicked over, Threepio’s consternation at his impending memory wipe, etc).

-Yoda casually knocking out the scarlet-robed Imperial Guards with the Force was the badass moment of the film.

-Anakin fared much better this time around. Although the scenes with Portman were wooden at best, he was downright creepy as he accepted the mantle of Sith apprentice, and downright terrifying as he prepared to murder the younglings. I think he made a more convincing Darth Vader than the stumbling, screaming automaton we see briefly at the end of the film (though neither is a patch on the Vader of the original trilogy).

-The “Order 66” montage was chilling. Watching the clonetroopers gun down the Jedi with brutal efficiency drove home Palpatine’s treachery, especially intercut with the shots of Anakin doing the same thing, and Yoda’s reactions as he feels the deaths of the Jedi through the Force.

Overall, I think my final scores for the Star Wars films run as follows:

The Phantom Menace: 4/10
Attack of the Clones: 5/10
Revenge of the Sith: 7/10
Star Wars: 9/10
The Empire Strikes Back: 10/10
Return of the Jedi: 8/10

98

Ratings? Cool.

Menace: 0/10.
Clones: 0/10.
Sith: 6/10.
Star Wars: 9/10.
Empire: 10/10.
Jedi: 6/10.

0’s too low for the first two movies? I think not, as they actually worked to destroy the franchise instead of build it. They are true abominations.

99

Agreed. That was just lame.

I think that scene would have been far more effective and chilling if his personal reaction had been more muted. One of the things that makes the Vader suit so imposing is that there aren’t any facial features or mood indicators. If he’d just stood there while his anger (through the foice) destroyed the things around him has his respirator clicked it would have been a far more effective scene, IMO.

100

I’m thinking Palpatine did and just didn’t tell Anakin. If Lucas hadn’t added that “she’s lost her will to live” bit, I would’ve thought it was Palpatine, not Anakin’s choke hold, that ended up killing Padme.