Thoughts on the viral 'New York catcalling' video?

[Belowjob2.0]

The men doing the catcalling - in all likelihood, are men with low levels of income, low levels of educational achievement, and poor prospects for the future. It’s likely that they were born and raised by single mothers, in families and communities where women were the primary if not sole breadwinners.

In short, this is a subculture where patriarchy has been smashed. No pay gap here - women are earning most of the income. No STEM gap either. Women are more likely in this subculture to finish high school, and go on to higher education, especially in fields like nursing, which require some scientific background.

This is a victory for feminism.

[Freudian_Slit]

Have we jumped the shark yet?

[Ulfreida]

@MeanOldLady

Ladies, please, are we really doing this again?

Forget about “fighting ignorance.” We’re dealing with a bunch of clueless guys blowing text directly from their assholes about a subject they’ve never experienced and know literally nothing about. Fuck 'em.

Where’s the heart smiley when you need it most?

[even_sven]

@Belowjob2.0

The men doing the catcalling - in all likelihood, are men with low levels of income, low levels of educational achievement, and poor prospects for the future. It’s likely that they were born and raised by single mothers, in families and communities where women were the primary if not sole breadwinners.

In short, this is a subculture where patriarchy has been smashed. No pay gap here - women are earning most of the income. No STEM gap either. Women are more likely in this subculture to finish high school, and go on to higher education, especially in fields like nursing, which require some scientific background.

This is a victory for feminism.

These things are not connected. This “sub-culture” could worship Venus images, pay a 10% tithe to women’s centers and institute the life inprisonment for rape-- and it would still be obnoxious to be hollered at.

Furthermore, I’m pretty sure most feminists would prefer that everyone have access to education and well-paid work.

[Belowjob2.0]

@even_sven

These things are not connected. This “sub-culture” could worship Venus images, pay a 10% tithe to women’s centers and institute the life inprisonment for rape-- and it would still be obnoxious to be hollered at.

Furthermore, I’m pretty sure most feminists would prefer that everyone have access to education and well-paid work.

You’ve explained why it makes you feel bad. You haven’t explained why these men should stop what they’re doing. How does refraining from catcalling benefit them? Why should they stop? Assuming that even fleeting, irritated attention from a young woman has value, at least to a man with no prospects, why should they give this up?

These things are not connected.

My impression is that they are connected. I see catcalling as a loser move, and generally speaking, men who aren’t losers don’t do it. More losers equals more catcalling. Do men catcall much in upscale areas? If not, why not?

[even_sven]

@Belowjob2.0

You’ve explained why it makes you feel bad. You haven’t explained why these men should stop what they’re doing. How does refraining from catcalling benefit them? Why should they stop? Assuming that even fleeting, irritated attention from a young woman has value, at least to a man with no prospects, why should they give this up?

These things are not connected.

My impression is that they are connected. I see catcalling as a loser move, and generally speaking, men who aren’t losers don’t do it. More losers equals more catcalling. Do men catcall much in upscale areas? If not, why not?

Well, my wallet has plenty of value to losers, but that doesn’t mean they get to take it because, hey, how else are they going to get beer money.

Men in upscale areas generally don’t mug people. More losers equals more mugging. Therefore, uh, something.

Actually, nothing. This argument makes no sense. If people have trouble getting jobs, the answer is more job training programs or something that addresses that problem. Not letting them blow off steam by intimidating random women on the street.

Trying to paint catcalling as some kind of social justice is absurd. Tell me, what kind of woman do you think gets catcalls the most often? I’ll give you a hint-- in the US catcalling happens most often in low income areas. What kind of women tend to hang around low income areas? Might it be low income women? Might their needs count for something, too?

Of course, we’ve already had vehement arguments that since catcalling happens in low income areas, it’s not a problem worth talking about. So I’m guessing the ability for low income women and girls to walk to the grocery style without men making lewd comments just isn’t something we really care about.

[Belowjob2.0]

@even_sven

Well, my wallet has plenty of value to losers, but that doesn’t mean they get to take it because, hey, how else are they going to get beer money.

Men in upscale areas generally don’t mug people. More losers equals more mugging. Therefore, uh, something.

Actually, nothing. This argument makes no sense. If people have trouble getting jobs, the answer is more job training programs or something that addresses that problem. Not letting them blow off steam by intimidating random women on the street.

Trying to paint catcalling as some kind of social justice is absurd. Tell me, what kind of woman do you think gets catcalls the most often? I’ll give you a hint-- in the US catcalling happens most often in low income areas. What kind of women tend to hang around low income areas? Might it be low income women? Might their needs count for something, too?

Of course, we’ve already had vehement arguments that since catcalling happens in low income areas, it’s not a problem worth talking about. So I’m guessing the ability for low income women and girls to walk to the grocery style without men making lewd comments just isn’t something we really care about.

Where did you get the “social justice” idea from? Not mentioned, and not relevant.

These men obviously get some kind of psychic reward out of catcalling. Why should they forgo it? What do they have to lose if they don’t?

[VarlosZ]

@Belowjob2.0

These men obviously get some kind of psychic reward out of catcalling. Why should they forgo it? What do they have to lose if they don’t?

Why should I hold the door open for the person behind me? Why should I say “excuse me” instead of just nudging my way through? When I’m having a bad day, why should I not take out my frustration by calling my waiter a moron?

Are you seriously asking why we should care about the feelings and well-being of others? If you insist, I could point out that the process of gaining respect by acting respectful is tried and true. I’m going to think less of anyone I see hollering at strange women; most people will.

[Belowjob2.0]

@VarlosZ

Why should I hold the door open for the person behind me? Why should I say “excuse me” instead of just nudging my way through? When I’m having a bad day, why should I not take out my frustration by calling my waiter a moron?

Are you seriously asking why we should care about the feelings and well-being of others? If you insist, I could point out that the process of gaining respect by acting respectful is tried and true. I’m going to think less of anyone I see hollering at strange women; most people will.

That’s just it. I don’t think your good opinion has any value in that subculture. Your approval, or disapproval of these men doesn’t mean much if anything at all. Insofar as the broader society is concerned, they’re already seen as dirt. Their actions won’t gain or lose them any respect, really.

Why should they care what you think?

[VarlosZ]

The main thrust of my post was that we should be considerate towards other people for their sake. The last couple sentences were just to provide a self-interested rationale in case that was, bizarrely, not meaningful to you.

Their are a couple of weird assumptions underlying your post that make it hard to respond to, but I’ll just ask: do you think everyone in this “subculture” thinks catcalling is just fine? Including the women? Even if there’s nothing that an urban Latino can do to improve the opinion of a middle class white (which isn’t true, but whatever), he’s still being judged by other people in his community.

[Belowjob2.0]

@VarlosZ

The main thrust of my post was that we should be considerate towards other people for their sake. The last couple sentences were just to provide a self-interested rationale in case that was, bizarrely, not meaningful to you.

Their are a couple of weird assumptions underlying your post that make it hard to respond to, but I’ll just ask: do you think everyone in this “subculture” thinks catcalling is just fine? Including the women? Even if there’s nothing that an urban Latino can do to improve the opinion of a middle class white (which isn’t true, but whatever), he’s still being judged by other people in his community.

Given the frequency that women pursue relationships with men who aren’t just rude but downright dangerous - petty criminals, major criminals, drug dealers, gangbangers - yeah, I’d say that in general, these women are okay with men acting like assholes. I can’t say all women, but many women respond quite well to some fairly ugly, fairly brutal assertions of power. You’d think that men like this would be shunned, but that just isn’t the case.
The main thrust of my post was that we should be considerate towards other people for their sake. The last couple sentences were just to provide a self-interested rationale in case that was, bizarrely, not meaningful to you.

Let’s say I’m one of these guys. In the course of a few months, I approach a hundred women on the street. I don’t make lewd or vulgar come ons, I say, Hello beautful! Or, Are you looking fine this morning! or whatever. Out of this hundred women, 2 or 3 give me their phone numbers. I win. Full stop. Why should I give a shit about the 98 women who never wanted to talk to me in the first place? What have I got to lose?

If I get no phone numbers, what of it. I at least made some women who would have otherwise ignored me to acknowledge that I exist. Like the misbehavior of neglected and abused children - any attention is good attention, even if it infuriates the parent.

[Frylock]

@Belowjob2.0

Out of this hundred women, 2 or 3 give me their phone numbers. I win. Full stop. Why should I give a shit about the 98 women who never wanted to talk to me in the first place? What have I got to lose?

If I get no phone numbers, what of it. I at least made some women who would have otherwise ignored me to acknowledge that I exist. Like the misbehavior of neglected and abused children - any attention is good attention, even if it infuriates the parent.

I don’t know if this “I” refers to you or a hypothetical narrator, but the thoughts expressed by this “I” are the thoughts of a bad person. What I mean by bad person in this case is, someone who people will interact with only by necessity, never because they actually want to. I hope “I” (whoever “I” is) enjoys this existence.

[iiandyiiii]

@Belowjob2.0

That’s just it. I don’t think your good opinion has any value in that subculture. Your approval, or disapproval of these men doesn’t mean much if anything at all. Insofar as the broader society is concerned, they’re already seen as dirt. Their actions won’t gain or lose them any respect, really.

Why should they care what you think?

I think most of them (or maybe just some of them) are actually decent people who wouldn’t take action to make a woman feel uncomfortable if they were aware of it. So I think if they were educated about the effect it can have, some or most of them would stop.

Part of the reason I believe this is so is that if my memory is right, I catcalled occasionally (with a “Damn!” or “Nice!”) in my teens, and I stopped years ago for good.

[BigT]

@iiandyiiii

I think most of them (or maybe just some of them) are actually decent people who wouldn’t take action to make a woman feel uncomfortable if they were aware of it. So I think if they were educated about the effect it can have, some or most of them would stop.

Part of the reason I believe this is so is that if my memory is right, I catcalled occasionally (with a “Damn!” or “Nice!”) in my teens, and I stopped years ago for good.

And those good people will likely provide consequences for the others.

Plus, the more socially unacceptable we make it in general, the more likely there will be other people outside their demographic that will call them on it.

Plus we let the women of those demographics know it’s unacceptable, and that they have support of others, so they may also react.

Pretty much how any socially unacceptable thing becomes so, really.

[VarlosZ]

@Belowjob2.0

Given the frequency that women pursue relationships with men who aren’t just rude but downright dangerous - petty criminals, major criminals, drug dealers, gangbangers - yeah, I’d say that in general, these women are okay with men acting like assholes. I can’t say all women, but many women respond quite well to some fairly ugly, fairly brutal assertions of power. You’d think that men like this would be shunned, but that just isn’t the case.

Let’s say I’m one of these guys. In the course of a few months, I approach a hundred women on the street. I don’t make lewd or vulgar come ons, I say, Hello beautful! Or, Are you looking fine this morning! or whatever. Out of this hundred women, 2 or 3 give me their phone numbers. I win. Full stop. Why should I give a shit about the 98 women who never wanted to talk to me in the first place? What have I got to lose?

If I get no phone numbers, what of it. I at least made some women who would have otherwise ignored me to acknowledge that I exist. Like the misbehavior of neglected and abused children - any attention is good attention, even if it infuriates the parent.

You’re still completely failing to engage with the notion that we should care about other people even when there’s nothing in it for us (which is beginning to become telling), and you’re outlook is still based on weird assumptions. You have no reason whatsoever to think that catcallers have a 2-3% success rate, among other things.

[Jragon]

I just… of course catcalling happens. A lot. When I was a kid 13 years ago, and my friends and I were 12 girls my age were getting catcalled by passing cars. It really kills the mood of any damn conversation you’re trying to have. I did notice it less as I grew up, but I assumed that was a combination of growing social isolation and the fact that when I wasn’t a little kid anymore guys were increasingly more reluctant to catcall when a grown man is next to the woman.

Like, I can understand if you’re just naive and grew up in the '70s and thought things have gotten better since then, or did it when you were a teen and assumed everyone grew out of it. But that’s not what’s going on here. What’s going on here is flat denial.

3-5 years ago when I regularly transported college-aged men to school it was bad enough that I had to explicitly instate a no-catcalling policy in my car. I literally instated a no windows down in the car policy for a while because they were talking about doing it so much. I actually kicked a guy out of my car to walk two miles home once because he didn’t listen. Admittedly, suggesting they do it at some point became worse solely as a game of razzing me because it pissed me off so much, but it never would have come up if they weren’t planning on doing it in the first place. Catcalling fucking happens.

One thing I can say is that it frequently isn’t about power or degradation or “being noticed” or any other such rationalization. A lot of guys legitimately think it’s a compliment to ask a woman to sit on their face. Or at least think it’s an innocent joke that will make them laugh. It’s not. It’s obnoxious, and as a joke it’s like calling a grown woman named Sierra “Misty” – she’s heard it before, it’s long lost any humor it may have had (none). And here’s the thing – it’s not a compliment if the other person doesn’t think it’s a compliment. Sorry.

I mean, look guys. Maybe you are just friendly and say hi to everyone. Most women can tell a catcall from a polite hello. And even if they can’t, well, at some point you have to have the self confidence to accept that it’s not on you. By all means, introspect and consider you’re doing something wrong. However, if you really are legitimately friendly to both sexes passing on the street, you also have to accept that maybe you passed a woman having a bad day, or who had a bad experience with a street stranger. It’s unfortunate, but neither of you did anything wrong in that situation. Nothing is unfair, it’s unfortunate that your greeting got misread and it’s unfortunate that she didn’t let the greeting brighten her day.

I’ve been snarked at by one or two women for holding open the door for them (I hold open the door for like… everyone), but I’m not going to complain that the evil feminazis are ruining basic politeness. It certainly didn’t feel good to get snarked at, or accused of upholding some outdated chivalrous code. But most of the time people appreciate my door opening, and while I’m very sorry it hurt some people, I have to accept that I know for myself that I didn’t do anything wrong.

So ask yourself: are you friendly? Equally? To both men and women on the street? If so, congratulations, you’re not part of the problem. Sometimes you may be mistaken for the problem and I’m sorry, but you should be working on combatting the actual problem. If your “gd’day ma’am” is truly courteous, then it’ll be much more fruitful for you to create a society where that righteousness is obvious than it will be to try and work out a system where people can’t be concerned about actual fucking problems just in case they miss out on how nice you’re being to them at the intersection of 3rd and Maple every Tuesday.

[Belowjob2.0]

@VarlosZ

You’re still completely failing to engage with the notion that we should care about other people even when there’s nothing in it for us (which is beginning to become telling), and you’re outlook is still based on weird assumptions. You have no reason whatsoever to think that catcallers have a 2-3% success rate, among other things.

(*which is beginning to become telling),
*

The ideas I’m presenting make you uncomfortable, so you attack my person instead of the ideas.

[QUOTE=frylock]
I don’t know if this “I” refers to you or a hypothetical narrator, but the thoughts expressed by this “I” are the thoughts of a bad person. What I mean by bad person in this case is, someone who people will interact with only by necessity, never because they actually want to. I hope “I” (whoever “I” is) enjoys this existence.
[/QUOTE]

The hypothetical was made clear by the phrase “Let’s say”.

What I mean by bad person in this case is, someone who people will interact with only by necessity, never because they actually want to. I hope “I” (whoever “I” is) enjoys this existence.

You’re saying that this man would be shunned, but in truth, he’d only be shunned by people like you. His mates may respect him for his bravado, or at least find some entertainment value in his antics.

Street approaches probably do work on some women. Even if they never work, at least these women know that this man exists. The actress in the video was olive skinned, with curly black hair and a big old butt. I’m sure that most of the men who approached her saw her as working class Latina, fair game for a street pickup.

Threatening to shun these men is pointless. They were never included in the first place, so threats of exclusion are meaningless.

[Frylock]

@Belowjob2.0

(*which is beginning to become telling),
*

The ideas I’m presenting make you uncomfortable, so you attack my person instead of the ideas.

The hypothetical was made clear by the phrase “Let’s say”.

What I mean by bad person in this case is, someone who people will interact with only by necessity, never because they actually want to. I hope “I” (whoever “I” is) enjoys this existence.

You’re saying that this man would be shunned, but in truth, he’d only be shunned by people like you. His mates may respect him for his bravado, or at least find some entertainment value in his antics.

And when he tells his mates he doesn’t give an actual shit about them and is friendly to them just because it is useful to him?

ETA: I’m anticipating a reply along the lines of something like “He does give an actual shit about his mates, just not the women he’s behaving this way towards.”

To which I’d respond: “And this is supposed to be a defense?”

If you’re thinking “No, I’m not defending, just explaining,” then my next response is “Ah, then you’re not actually having the conversation the rest of us are having!”

Of course I may be off in the anticipations just given…

[Belowjob2.0]

@Frylock

And when he tells his mates he doesn’t give an actual shit about them and is friendly to them just because it is useful to him?

ETA: I’m anticipating a reply along the lines of something like “He does give an actual shit about his mates, just not the women he’s behaving this way towards.”

To which I’d respond: “And this is supposed to be a defense?”

If you’re thinking “No, I’m not defending, just explaining,” then my next response is “Ah, then you’re not actually having the conversation the rest of us are having!”

Of course I may be off in the anticipations just given…

*If you’re thinking “No, I’m not defending, just explaining,” *

I’m not defending their behavior, that’s for sure. It’s not something I would countenance among my friends or family members.

Like some other posters, I’ve been catcalled many times in gay friendly environments. For a grown ass man, it’s no big deal. When I was a young teen, it was frightening. The gay dudes in question didn’t care. They were just trying to get some play, and if I wasn’t down for it, well, then, Next!

I’m not defending it. It is what it is.

[iiandyiiii]

Fewer men catcall now in some places then in the past. This didn’t just happen by chance – society and culture have changed. Some men have figured out that catcalling makes some women feel uncomfortable, and they made the decision that they don’t want to do this any more.

The way (or one way) to get this to continue to happen is to continue to talk about it, and continue to criticize catcallers, as Roberts did and as we are now. Do you deny any of this is the case, Belowjob2.0?