I agree. I counted, there were 4 “good morning/evenings” and a fifth near the end where the guy called her darling after his greeting. I’m not convinced those stand up as examples of cat-calling.
I don’t deny that it’s had some effect on men who have something to lose.
Part of the issue is that many women don’t want to be approached by low status men and men not of their choosing. It’s not so much an issue of safety as it is discomfort at interacting with one’s social inferiors.
Women here and elsewhere have pointed out it’s all kinds of men who do it and that pretty much every guy who catcalls is the kind of guy they don’t want to talk to. This whole “it’s guys from a different subgroup and that’s how they communicate” stuff is for the birds. The idea that low-income men are so separate from the rest of society and incapable of changing is just as offensive as the idea that women are just waiting for the right guy to catcall them to make it OK.
In case anyone missed this, this is a good post and you should read it.
That’s just it. Your comfort is not their first priority, or a priority at all. Doesn’t matter.
[QUOTE=Belowjob2.0.]
If I get no phone numbers, what of it. I at least made some women who would have otherwise ignored me to acknowledge that I exist. Like the misbehavior of neglected and abused children - any attention is good attention, even if it infuriates the parent.
[/QUOTE]
Which is what this conversation is about. Reminding (some) men that women are human beings, too, that their needs/comfort exist. You’re making these guys sound way too antisocial to even be part of a society.
Not just men who “have something to lose”, but men who do not want to take any actions that might make women feel uncomfortable.
Count me in as another white male who has seen catcalling once in my life. I looked at him and said “Do you think that’s actually going to work?” He got defensive, used the “it’s a compliment” line, and my life moved on.
That said, I find the hard lines drawn between the sexes on this issue interesting. I’ve seen something very similar once before, so I’m going to make an analogy that will probably piss someone off.
A friend of the family wont a significant chunk of money in a lottery around a decade ago. Now, you’d think that a couple million dollars would be a good thing, right? According to my friend, it was one of the worst things that ever happened to him. All of a sudden, he had a lot of people come into his life trying to get their hands on some of that money, using emotional blackmail, guilt, and outright lies. His long-term relationship fell apart because of it. The worst part of it though, according to him, was that no one gave a shit about any of the problems he was having now that he had a bunch of money. The usual response was something along the lines of “I wish I had that problem.”
So when I see women making a valid complaint about having attention focused on them in ways that make them feel uncomfortable, I also see a bunch of men who wish they had that problem. Like the friends of my friend who won the lottery, they can’t see any of the downsides, just the upsides. I think there’s a lot of men who wish they had the opposite sex focusing all that attention on them. There’s no empathy for the other’s situation, merely jealousy.
Wish I knew how to solve the issue, but that’s all I got.
I think a lot of men assume it’s all complimentary, though. Many less conventionally attractive women point out that they are harassed, too, and it’s not as “complimentary” as some of the stuff we saw in that video. Which, I think, bears repeating, since there’s been so much talk of how it’s difficult not to tell a pretty woman she’s pretty–it cuts both ways.
I think there is a serious disconnect here with many men (including myself) who almost never see this behavior in their daily lives and outside of bars and similar venues the incidence of it’s being performed by adult American middle class white men, and middle class black men in non-urban settings is practically infinitesimal.
Flip side to the rougher urban areas or areas where lots of unemployed men hang out it’s quite likely to happen at some point to a woman walking down the street.
I think assertions that employed, middle class (of any ethnicity), adult, sober men are doing any substantive catcalling to women walking down the street are highly questionable. If an adult man fitting the above parameters did this his peers would look upon him as oafish at best and potentially deranged at worst.
Cat calling on the street may be a problem in a fairly specific locational and socio-economic context, but trying to claim this is some sort of broad societal problem with adult American male behavior is patently absurd.
And…?
There have been many calls for ‘upstanding’ men to do something about this type of behavior when they see other males do it even if they don’t engage in it themselves. The problem with that is that many, if not most of us, hardly ever witness it. When we do, the men that are engaging in it are certainly not the people that you want to voluntarily sit next to and have a heart to heart Cosby Show type chat with.
Women are asking for Knight behavior over something that most of us have no control over and no experience with. You might as well ask us to demand young thugs to stop killing each other on the streets (that is mainly male on male) or stop stealing from people’s cars. All of those behaviors are correlated with specific socioeconomic groups and there is absolutely nothing that the typical middle-class male can do about it directly that is socially acceptable. Some people try by carrying concealed firearms and confronting people that engage in those types of behaviors but that is even deemed even more unacceptable.
There is no way that I can think of for a man who isn’t engaging in this type of behavior to satisfy the women making the complaints without legalized violence and systemic discrimination. I know what I will tell my daughters. I will escort you if I am there, but you really need to stop walking through bad neighborhoods alone if you feel that threatened and can’t deal with the culture.
Ok, but you aren’t the only man in the universe.
Men outside your particular demographic do watch TV, read internet articles and otherwise engage in this type of public debate. I used to get hollered out by construction workers working on a building by my subway stop. Those guys aren’t some kind pf subterranean lepers outside the pale of human society. They have families and neighbors and buddies who certainly can say “Knock it off, dude, were you raised in a barn?”
If this doesn’t apply to you, that’s fine. All you need to say is “Geez, it must be obnoxious to get yelled at like that all the time. I wish there was more I could do.”
But instead we get “Oh, this only applies to poor areas, and they edited out the white guys, and they are just saying hi, and first world problems, and I’ve never seen it, and why would you deprive some loser of the joy of harassing women, and being scared is anti-feminist, and that was a sexy crew neck, and…”
A hundred ways to tell us why our feelings and desires are not important, and not one acknowledgement of something that every single woman in these threads agrees is a bad thing that they wish would stop.
It’s a bad thing that should stop. So what specifically do you want to happen? This behavior is not usually occurring in a context where there are employed middle class males hovering around able *or willing *to confront this behavior by getting in the perpetrator’s face. If an adult, sober middle class male does this in public, in the presence of his peers, they will shun and castigate him. If this is done by an underclass or unemployed person in their own neighborhood or hangout a middle class white knight has a very good chance of getting into a physically dangerous confrontation by calling them out on their rudeness and lack of manners. Much more so than woman would if she called them out.
What do you want middle class men to be doing about this rude behavior? We are already policing our socio-economic peers, what do you want us to be doing about the specific group of men perpetrating this offense?
There may be a good answer to this question, but it doesn’t seem like the right question. I teach mostly minority men and women with low incomes, and I brought this video up last week. Many of them had seen it, and the men in the classroom defended the behavior, as in, defended their behavior, and the women in the classroom did their best to set the guys straight. It would be incredible if my classroom was the only place in the country where that kind of conversation is happening as a result of things like this video. So even if this is somehow, as your question presumes, something “middle class men” have nothing to do with, the answer to the question behind your question is “disseminate information and let people talk.”