Thanks for your support, lieu. I was begining to get really depressed!
You said:
Agreed, but the people typically remembered for dying on Everest are not just the expidition leaders. As I mentioned, the camera man gets an honorable mention as do other climbers who were not team leaders. Moreover, in this example, we’re not talking about anyone being the first to do anything, such as with Hillary. These were just other climbs that went awry, famous only for that reason. In light of this, it seems to me a gross oversight not to mention the sherpas who also died.
True, but who is their target audience? If it’s mountaineers, I can’t understand why some of the greatest climbers in the world would not be of interest to the audience. The white climbers were of various nationalities, so what’s the difference? Are the Nepali names just too difficult to pronouce? Surely that can’t be it, so I’m still at a loss.
I wonder if Sherpas sit around recalling Old Sherpa Soandso, and Sherpa Whoit Was, and that guy Sherpa Another One, that died on Everest, with a bunch of white guys?
This gave me a chuckle. Since when is dying in a recreational pursuit an “accomplishment”? “Did you here about John? His bungee cord snapped and he plummeted to his death.” “Man, what an accomplishment!”
I know this is a hijack, but I don’t understand this. You may know much more about the etymology of these names than I do, but to me they all sound English/Irish/Scottish or at least European (Genet would be French?).
…in books written by and for climbers. I’m a budding mountaineer myself - heading for Rainier in three weeks. [Wish me luck, I’ll need plenty] Anyhow, the point is I’ve got several mountaineering books in my library, and I’m familiar with the names of many Sherpas: Tenzing Norgay, Ang Rita, Ang Phurba, and Nawang Gombu to name a few. The Sherpa’s often get credit by name in most of these books, at least those who summit or play a major leadership role. So I think collective references, racist or not, are more a matter of stuff written for consumption by the general public.
Off the top of my head, I would suggest that the Sherpa’s are the most glorified indigeneous group providing guides for expeditions in the history of the world. Anyone know the names of the native guides assisting the Lewis and Clarke expedition? Or the expedition into the heart of Africa by Stanley?
They are all English, Irish (Burke & Hoey), Scottish (Duff)or French (Genet). My point is that “Anglo-Saxon” is not an appropriate description for an Irish, Scottish or French person (and probably isn’t an appropriate description for anybody in the modern world). I suspect that clairobscur was using it as a lazy synonym for something like “North-Western European”. That said, I don’t know anything about the individuals concerned, so if they’re all English, I’m prepared to stand corrected.
Hired Help? The Sherpas probably did everything the mountaineers did with twice as much weight on their backs.
Does anybody care to speculate what year Everest would have been conquered without Sherpas carrying all the gear and supplies for the expeditions?
I’d say it would have taken another 10-20 years for someone to have organized a huge expedition with enough experienced people to carry all their equipment and supplies up there to the base camps.
Just a meager contribution here, but I recall a news story last year on all the major American outlets that a Sherpa (No, I don’t recall his name) had set the world record that day for the fastest unassisted climb of Everest. Not a single white guy was mentioned.
I don’t think the scope of the problem, at least in this instance since climbers always name their guides (TTBOMK) in their write-ups. Of course the media don’t give as much emphasis to the native logistical support - their constituents aren’t part of the readership. You can bet, though, that if Sports Illustrated, National Geographic and all the other magazines that cover this sort of thing had Nepali editions that the Sherpas would be named in the articles.
Right. As I’ve said several times, when it’s a “first” kind of thing, one expects the leaders to be the one’s remembered in history. My gripe is that when Westerners refer to these deaths on Everest (not ‘firsts’ in any way), the sherpas seem to always get neglected.
This is an argument I don’t get. “Well, they would do it, too, so it’s OK”? Or is it that it’s their job to remember theirs and we’ll just remember ours? Either way the attitude sucks.
grienspace, I though I had already, in several posts, made the distinction between when something is done for the first time and an event that was not destined to go down in history and is only remembered because a tragedy occurred. If I wasn’t clear, I don’t care. I give up.
I trust Speleophile’s word that mountaineering magazines/books do recognize the sherpas as more than just hired help and give them due credit. I’m glad to hear that and I feel a bit better aobut this whole thing as a result. Thanks. Still bugs me that Westerners can remember the white camera man and not the sherpas but since not many others seem to be bothered by this I guess it will remain “just the way it is”. Mom always said I can’t have everything I want.
You gave me a chuckle, too. You aren’t really going to make me type out, “No, I’m saying I find it selfish and ego-centric that we don’t recognize, after their deaths and in their honor, the many accomplishments in the sport of mountaineering they had achieved over the years”
On the other hand, if we were going to try to score dying, I’d have to give kicking it atop Everest a much higher rating than, say, cardiac failure.
Ffperson, you, like all those who agree with me are both kind a wise
Anybody who undertakes a career in research whether it be expeditionary, medical, or technological has this happen to them. In medicine for instance, a few doctors will get authorship on journal articles and even though one or two might provide an idea, they do less than 1% of the labor to bring the research to fruition. You have research staff at hospitals, database administration, programming, statistics analysis, medical writing, dozens of people overseeing research and improving techiniques that never get named. It’s just the nature of that kind of work. As long as I get paid, I don’t mind.
But the sherpas didn’t do “less than 1% of the labor”. My whole complaint is “why not equal recognition for equal contribution”.
As always, you guys have made me think and, while tossing the ideas presented around in my head last night I think I may have better defined the problem. Several posters made comments about the media’s concern to present a story their audience can relate to. I agree, but why do they feel, perhaps rightly, that a western audiance would not relate to the sherpa’s story? Granted, if the story were to revolve around Temang Gurung and his yak herding difficulties it may be a little hard for the average American machinist to relate, but in stories such as “Into
Thin Air”, the focus was on the human trajedy. The story did not go into depth aobut the lives of the western climbers–no more than to show that so-and-so had a wife and kids or a brother or whatever who cared about him. I don’t see why Westerners would not be able to relate to the same sentiments being held by the sherpas and their families. I think we would all like to believe that we can and, in fact, do.
But if that’s the case–if we really do look at people as humans rather than in “us” and “them” groups-- how could Westerners read a story or watch a film about a trajedy on Everest and not say, “What about Mahesh, Padam and Tensing?”. Would the media see fit to tell the same story focusing only on the profesional mountaineers and throw in at the end, “Oh, and some of the tourists died as well”? I don’t think so since all the stories I’ve seen at the very least mention the tourists by name and give some background of them as well. Why these characters and not the sherpas? While one could argue that the sherpas weren’t the leaders it would be quite a stretch to make the case that they were less significant to the expidition than the tourists.
So why the exclusion? Why aren’t we interested in the sherpas who died? Why can’t we relate the Nepali mountaineers like we can to the Western mountaineers? We’re talking aobut the same climb, facing the same challenges, the same heartbreak to the families. In these terms, what is different about the sherpas that makes us unable to equate their losses with those of the white guys?
Sorry, mack, now I understand what you were saying.
I confess I don’t know all the ins and outs of giving credit for scientific publications, but my guess would be that the guys who get the credit are those who came up with the theory and designed the experiment. This, again, brings us into the realm of “firsts”. In the case of the mountaineers we’ve been talking about, there were no firsts. The “expiditions” they lead were adventure holidays, not an attempt to make new discoveries.
If I’m wrong about scientific publications and people are getting their names on papers only becasue they’re the department heads, then that sucks and should be remedied.
Lucky, you might also like to know that Edmond Hillary’s first words upon returning to camp were “Well, we knocked the bastard off”. That’s we as opposed to I. And he has consistently refused to answer when questioned as to which was first to actually step onto the summit between himself and Norgay, saying it was a joint effort and neither could have summited without the other.
this is exactly what i was trying to say in my post way further up this page. i looked at this thread again today and realized my words were rather harsh and rushed.
most likely they are trying to expand their target audience, and therefore are trying to present something the reader can identify with. i think that it should be the duty of the true mountaineer to dig deeper and learn more about the subject, just like an expert in any other field does.
**Speleophile **, thanks for the post. I know that HIllary has always been a fair sport and a true gentleman and really have no complaints about his behavior. Most reports do give credit to Tensing Norgay which I applaud because, as it was “first” type accomplishment, I wouldn’t fault them too much if they did only mention the leader. Hillary has demonstrated throughout his life a great respect and love for the Nepali people and was granted citizenship by the Nepali government. I believe he is still the only Westerner who holds Nepali citizenship. But back to the point.
johnfromdenver, I don’t understand your point about expanding the target audience. Why would a Western target audience not be equally interested in the sherpas who died? This story is usually covered focusing on 1) the difficulties of the climb; 2) how the people died/sustained their injuries; and 3) the human tragedy of their loss. Why, in the eyes of a western audience, would these factors not be interesting when the subject is a sherpa as opposed to a Westerner? As I mentioned earlier, most of the stories don’t go into any depth about the people’s lives prior to the climb, so I don’t think an argument about divergent lifestyles making it hard for a Western audience to relate would hold any water. I’m wondering if this suggests an underlying (and probably subconcious) feeling that “those people aren’t really like us” which most of us would like to think ourselves above.
Lastly, I’d like to defend our mountaineering friends, the “true mountaineers” that johnfromdenver mentioned. **Speleophile ** has already said that in mountaineering books the sherpas are generally mentioned. I would be shiocked if they weren’t, since they are some of the best climbers in the world and certainly a specialty publication would not ignore them. My gripe is with the popular media and general public.
frankly, because westerners are pricks. that’s just the way their ethnocentric minds work. second, think about the ease on the writers of these books. you can’t get an eloquent english quote from one who doesn’t speak english. you can’t get an interesting interview either. there is simply a greater amount of information on western climbers because of this. it’s the fault of lazy americanism, like everything else.
