Time dilation and blue-shifting

The classic explanation for the phenomenon of time dilation in Special Relativity postulates one observer whose frame is taken to be “at rest” while observing someone in motion relative to them. The observer sees a clock in the moving framework as running slower than their clock. And of course steady motion being relative one could switch to the other reference frame and that one would see the first observer’s clock as running slow.

But this is always depicted as two observers passing by one another transversely so that for that moment they are neither approaching nor receding from each other. How do you demonstrate time dilation for a reference frame approaching you at a large fraction of the speed of light? Since the light leaving the other frame may be only just outrunning it’s source, I would have thought that in addition to being blue-shifted, events in the oncoming frame would appear highly compressed– clocks appearing to run faster rather than slower. Is there some factor I’m overlooking?

I’m only an amateur physicist, but I think this is the crucial point of your argument. The light is not only just outrunning its source; both observers - the one in the ship that emits the light, and the one that this ship is approaching - see the light moving at the same speed, c. That’s exactly one of the two key postulates that special relativity was derived from.

I’m not even an amateur physicist, but I sort of get the implication here - if something is approaching you at some large fraction of the speed of light, you have 1) the object approaching you at whatever velocity, and you have 2) the light from the object approaching you at c - the problem is, you can’t see item 1 - well you can, but you see it as 2.

You can’t see the object approaching you, and the light from that object as two different things; the light is how you see the object approaching.

The blue shift is “the clocks appearing to run faster”. That is what it means.

Yeah, the clock will appear bluer and faster when the other person is approaching you and redder and slower after you’re passed and the other person is receding from you, right?

That is right. This is the (relativistic) Doppler effect.

The actual shift, also known as the Doppler effect, is essentially a super high speed version of the sound effect you hear from a passing vehicle. It’s caused by a compression of the sound waves between the approaching vehicle and the listener, causing a higher frequency sound, until the vehicle passes and then the opposite happens, causing a sudden lowering of pitch.

We use this in Anti Submarine Warfare (ASW) as well. So in the case of the blue shift, in which the light waves between the approaching, or closing, object, are being compressed to shove the light colour further higher-frequency in the electromagnetic spectrum.

Regarding the time dilation thing, TBH I have no bloody idea. IANA physicist, but I was an ASW officer a long time ago.

That’s the relativistic Doppler effect, but it’s not time dilation. Time dilation occurs no matter what the relative direction of motion is. The derivation of time dilation assumes that you’re already accounting for the time lag for signals to reach you. Even when you account for that, you still find that the other clock is going slower than yours.

Not only is there no contradiction there, without taking into account the relativistic geometry of the situation, i.e., time dilation, you would not even be able to derive the magnitude of the relativistic Doppler effect.

There does seem to be a source of confusion if the maxim that “moving clocks tick slower” is misunderstood because you observe them ticking faster as they approach you at high velocity.

This and this–

–are the crux of my question.

There is Doppler shift, and there is time dilation, but they are not the same thing. The time dilation still shows up even after you account for Doppler shift.

I’d like to see that diagrammed or otherwise explained in a primer on Relativity, because it’s hard to picture for two observers approaching one another.

The classic illustration of time dilation uses a bouncing light pulse as a clock. I have two mirrors, parallel to each other (say, on the floor and the ceiling), a known distance apart (say, 1 meter). I bounce a light pulse between them, perpendicular to the mirrors. Every time the light pulse hits the first mirror, that’s one tick of my clock, and I use that to define my unit of time. Since the speed of light is constant, and since my mirrors are a constant distance apart, it always takes the same amount of time, and so my clock is consistent.

But now suppose that I’m moving relative to you. If the light pulse is to keep on hitting the same spots on the mirrors, while the mirrors are moving, the light must be traveling a zigzagging path. Which means that the light is traveling a longer distance. But the speed of light is still constant, so that light that’s traveling a longer distance must be taking a longer time. And so you measure my clock as running slow.

Of note, this does not depend at all on which direction you’re traveling relative to me, nor what position you are relative to me: We might be getting closer together, or further apart, or passing obliquely, and it’s the same effect. It is a little different if the direction of our relative motion is also perpendicular to the mirrors, and that’s how we get length contraction as well as time dilation.

I’ll come to your core question in a moment. To restate the basic picture:

If a sound or light source is moving toward you, you receive wave crests and troughs more frequently than you would if the source were at rest relative to you, since each subsequent crest or trough has been given a “head start” by the motion of the source. This is standard Doppler blueshift. Switching the motion to be “away from you” leads to a redshift instead.

Separately, if the source is moving fast enough relative to you, relativistic time dilation of the source may also be important. This is not unique to light sources, though that’s where you usually hear about it.

A situation in which the latter effect is noteworthy is when a distant source is moving across one’s field of view (rather than toward or away). The first type of effect (mundane Doppler) does not occur for such transverse motion, but the latter effect (time dilation) continues to apply in that case.

However, keeping to the straight toward/away case, you are (correctly!) noting that a source moving toward you will have clocks that appear to be running faster, contrary to the standard language of time dilation (which says moving clocks run slower.) Indeed, the apparent clock speed will match whatever blueshifting is going on. I believe your question here is, “So, what gives?”

It’s the distinction between asking about their clocks when you are local to them vs. when you are far away and observing the clocks via a propagating signal sent at some point in the past.

We can set up a purely local clock-measuring scenario. Imagine we are watching a ship directly approaching us. The ship will pass our location 12 months from now. We have previously arranged with a friend stationed closer to the ship – 6 months out instead of 12 months – to also keep an eye on the ship. My friend and I are stationary to one another, so we are in the same reference frame. He is just facilitating my ability to measure things at different locations in this reference frame. We have previously synchronized our clocks* so that we can compare notes later.

Right when the ship passes by my friend, he takes a photo that shows his clock and the ship’s clock in the same shot. When the ship passes me, I do the same. When we compare notes later, we see that our own clocks elapsed by 6 months between the ship encounters / photos while the ship clock elapsed by something less than 6 months. The moving clock is seen as having run more slowly. This is time dilation at its heart.

But wait! The ship captain can take the same sorts of photos during the two encounters, and her photos must show the same clock faces as shown in our photos. Heck, maybe even her photos are each taken a split-second later than ours so that she captures her clock, our clock, and our freshly taken photo already visible on our phone’s screen. All this local evidence must match. Wouldn’t the captain, therefore, conclude that our clocks (which are moving according to her) are advancing faster?

Perhaps surprisingly, no. She will indeed see our two clocks differing by 6 months between the two encounters, but she will also see that our clocks were never synchronized to begin with. An important consequence of relativity is that simultaneity depends on reference frame. So when we originally sync’d up our clocks through some concrete actions so that they simultaneously read zero (say), those actions would not lead to simultaneous zeros in the ship reference frame. The 6-month difference seen on the clocks needs the synchronization offset taken into consideration before the captain can infer anything about the clocks’ rates. And that offset is precisely the amount needed for the captain to correctly infer that our clocks appear to run slowly for her, as they should and by the same factor that we see for her clocks.

Taking a step back, relativity relates to spacetime, so space and time must always be considered together. The simplest statements of time dilation apply to cases where the “space” part of the problem can be factored out. In the above example, we did that by having two observers who can each make local observations of the ship’s clock to make a direct statement about how fast it it ticking. That doesn’t help us for the captain’s perspective, as the captain needs to consider how two spatially separated and moving clocks relate to one another – an inherently non-local question. And it also doesn’t help when we are watching a distant ship moving at us – also inherently non-local (and with a physical separation that is changing with time).

The seemingly separate effects (time dilation, length contraction, relativity of simultaneity, etc.) all come together elegantly via the Lorentz transformation, which converts spacetime-dependent observations in one frame into another frame without needing to juggle any artificially separated time or space consequences. But talking about “time dilation” on its own is certainly useful in many applications, so long as one is careful.

*In principle, one must show that a synchronization scheme is well-defined. (It is.)

Yes, wrt time dilation, the best that I can do, is take the physicists word for it; it’s simply beyond me.

They can measure the time dilation caused by walking kind of fast, or raising/lowering an object a couple of feet, so you don’t have to take their word for it as in it’s just theoretical science fiction.

If an object is travelling at the speed of light. ( for the sake of argument ) But also emitting photons. Don’t the photons have to then occupy the same space? Would that be possible? I imagine a photon thick layer, with photons trying to be added to that layer. Or are the emitted photons now not able to leave their origin point? Is this a situation that limits speed to just under the speed of light? So the photons can go forward at immense energy, but still leave room for others to go forward too. If the object does indeed hit light speed. Where do the photons and their immense energy go? Boom? in some way?

They (and the object) turn into pumpkins.

It isn’t.

It doesn’t.

There’s a broad category of questions, asked in places like this, that amount to “What if this thing that violates the laws of physics were to happen. Wouldn’t that violate the laws of physics?”.

I am pretty sure @Kedikat is asking about Cherenkov radiation. There is indeed some constructive interference effect due to electrons passing through a medium faster than light. That is where the nice blue glow around nuclear reactor cores originates.