[QUOTE=Ale]
Randy, when you start using Easter Germany as a model for walls you should really stop a minute and think what you are advocating to become; for starters a walled up country should seriously think about changing it´s motto of “Land of the Free home of the Brave” to something else.
[/QUOTE]
Land of the heavily surveilled and home of those cowering behind doors duct-taped with plastic sheeting?
-Joe
[QUOTE=Gorsnak]
If y’all wanna build a fence along the Canadian border, just go right ahead.
[/QUOTE]
Maybe we will. The Mythbusters already showed your catapult idea doesn’t work.
[QUOTE=randyjet]
Once again most folks try and ignore the facts that fencing of proper design does indeed work. It worked very well in Europe in keeping the eastern Europeans in their communist states. They had even more incentive to get out and it was a lot more dangerous than anything that is proposed. There were indeed escapes and breeching of the border fences there, but it worked 99.9% of the time. We now have NO such thing on our border and we have our laws flouted at will. The BP gets maybe 20% of the illegals who try and cross. Most intelligent folks would consider going from 20% to 99% a major improvement. Sorry so many flunked basic logic.
[/quote]
First of all, you’re talking about fences in Europe which covered a much smaller area than what we’re talking about-- say the difference between the size of Connecticut and Texas as a basis of comparison.
Secondly, there’s no way to say for sure that it worked “99.9%” of the time-- how do they count the ones who got through undetected?
Lastly, why would you say they had more incentive to leave than Mexicans do? (Unless their faimly was a direct target of an investigation or oppression, of course.)
I don’t see how a fence will stop chases. They’ll have to chase after them once they corss the fence, won’t they?
Yeah, we have ground-penetrating radar, but it only covers a small area. Buying enough systems to monitor the entire fence would be astronomically expensive.
The 9/11 hijackers were screened, too, you know.
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves]
Maybe we will. The Mythbusters already showed your catapult idea doesn’t work.
[/QUOTE]
What catapult idea? I don’t pay my cable company enough money for them to let me watch Mythbusters.
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton]
“Fence” is such an ugly word! Call it a “Friendship Wall”! 
[/QUOTE]
Bastion of Genetic Cleanliness ?
[QUOTE=Lissa]
First of all, you’re talking about fences in Europe which covered a much smaller area than what we’re talking about-- say the difference between the size of Connecticut and Texas as a basis of comparison.
[/QUOTE]
Well, how long is the DMZ between North and South Korea?
Of course, that’s an effective barrier because there are large numbers of troops stationed along every mile of it on both sides, all the time.
[QUOTE=Burrido]
Why waste money on a fence? They recently just found a huge tunnel that went under the border. Illegals get smuggled in by the truckloads.
[/QUOTE]
Illegal drugs, you mean.
That tunnels is (was?) used by druggies, not coyotes.
[QUOTE=Lute Skywatcher]
Illegal drugs, you mean.
[/QUOTE]
Sure, but if one, why not the other? One of the convenient things about illegal immigrants is that you can make your money ahead of time.
That, and they have their own legs, so they can walk themselves across the border.
-Joe
[QUOTE=Merijeek]
Sure, but if one, why not the other?
[/QUOTE]
They are, but reportedly not through that tunnel.
[QUOTE=Ale]
Easter Germany
[/QUOTE]
[Homer] mmmmm, the land of chocolate…[/Homer]
[QUOTE=Ale]
Randy, when you start using Easter Germany as a model for walls you should really stop a minute and think what you are advocating to become; for starters a walled up country should seriously think about changing it´s motto of “Land of the Free home of the Brave” to something else.
[/QUOTE]
I am sorry. I thought that most people could understand the difference between IN and OUT. The East German wall and border fencing was made to keep people IN. Just as prison fencing is designed to keep those people IN. Do you seriously think that prison fencing makes us a less free country? Or maybe you think that it exists to keep the rest of us from breaking in and enjoying the delights of living in prison? The East Germans made that claim as well. They said it was to keep the rest of the world from breaking in and enjoying the delights of living in a Stalinist state. I see that you are among those.
As for the feasibility of the fence, just along the East German portion of the border it was 840 miles long. That was just a small part of the border fencing that was installed in the Cold War. Europe is small, but not THAT small folks. It is still a continent and a good sized one. My guess would be that the border fencing was at least well over the 2000 miles that is our border with Mexico.
I saw in the news that the Europeans are building their own fence to keep out the Russians, and Ukrainians who are coming across the borders. So I hope that you will call attention to the fact that Europe seems to think a border fence is just fine with them. Maybe you can send some protests to the EU and demand that they let in the poor Russians and Ukrainians who want nothing more than a better life and who also have a right to become Poles, Germans, etc.. Otherwise they are racists and bigots who hate others. Not to mention the fact that putting up such a fence will make them a dictatorship and not a free part of the world.
[QUOTE=randyjet]
Just as prison fencing is designed to keep those people IN. Do you seriously think that prison fencing makes us a less free country?
[/QUOTE]
There are those who say so. Prison abolition - Wikipedia
[QUOTE=Merijeek]
Sure, but if one, why not the other? One of the convenient things about illegal immigrants is that you can make your money ahead of time.
That, and they have their own legs, so they can walk themselves across the border.
-Joe
[/QUOTE]
Actually, the coyotes do NOT make their money ahead of time in many cases. The reason that many are armed is to keep their illegals in control as prisoners until they get paid by relatives. We had a nice little shootout here in Houston between rival gangs who were trying to steal some of the illegals so that they could collect the money that was owed. That is another joy of not having a proper border fence. Folks far from the border get to experience combat in urban settings and mainly Hispanic neighborhoods. I am sure that the folks who were diving for the floors in the area were singing the praises of porous borders.
What is wrong with my country, that people look to the Iron Curtain for an example?
Mr. Bush, tear down this fence! Better yet, don’t build it!
[QUOTE=randyjet]
I am sorry. I thought that most people could understand the difference between IN and OUT.
[/QUOTE]
Good move there, pal; piss me off right from the start.
[QUOTE=randyjet]
The East German wall and border fencing was made to keep people IN. Just as prison fencing is designed to keep those people IN. Do you seriously think that prison fencing makes us a less free country? Or maybe you think that it exists to keep the rest of us from breaking in and enjoying the delights of living in prison? The East Germans made that claim as well. They said it was to keep the rest of the world from breaking in and enjoying the delights of living in a Stalinist state. I see that you are among those.
[/QUOTE]
Why, yes!, how did you know?; my heart pounds just at the thought of living on a Stalinist state! :rolleyes:
Now for more amusement, tell me in which number I´m thinking right now?
[QUOTE=randyjet]
I saw in the news that the Europeans are building their own fence to keep out the Russians, and Ukrainians who are coming across the borders. So I hope that you will call attention to the fact that Europe seems to think a border fence is just fine with them. Maybe you can send some protests to the EU and demand that they let in the poor Russians and Ukrainians who want nothing more than a better life and who also have a right to become Poles, Germans, etc.. Otherwise they are racists and bigots who hate others. Not to mention the fact that putting up such a fence will make them a dictatorship and not a free part of the world.
[/QUOTE]
To beging with, cite?
Next, if it is so I´ll argue against it just as I´m doing here, so if someone posts a thread about “Time For The Fence Along The Border” between Western Europe and Eastern Europe based on the same premises as your OP you can bet I´d pretty much say the same things as I said here.
But hey!, if you enjoy making strawmen and pounding them be my guest, just don´t expect much respect in return.
[QUOTE=Ale]
Good move there, pal; piss me off right from the start.
I can care less about your emotional state which judging from the lack of arguments is about all that you have going for you. I hardly think that observing that fences have different purposes is all that hard to fathom, except for some. A gun in a cops hand is good, one in a crooks hand is bad. The gun is neutral, as is a fence, but it is the purpose of it that matters as well as its effectiveness.
My real point in bring up the new eastern European fence is that they have personal hard experience in using fences to surpress them and their rights. Yet they feel that such a new fence is NOT an infringment of their new found liberty, but a means to secure it. I think that they are right.
[QUOTE=randyjet]
[QUOTE=Ale]
My real point in bring up the new eastern European fence is that they have personal hard experience in using fences to surpress them and their rights. Yet they feel that such a new fence is NOT an infringment of their new found liberty, but a means to secure it. I think that they are right.
[/QUOTE]
They also once thought that getting rid of the Jews was a pretty swell idea. Just because something has popular support does not make it the right (or smart) thing to do.
Instead of spending billions of dollars on what will almost certianly be a folly, why not spend that money on hiring more INS agents and equipping them with the latest non-lethal technologies? Not only will it create a hell of a lot more jobs for Americans, it has the added benefit of possibly working.
[QUOTE=Lissa]
[QUOTE=randyjet]
They also once thought that getting rid of the Jews was a pretty swell idea. Just because something has popular support does not make it the right (or smart) thing to do.
Instead of spending billions of dollars on what will almost certianly be a folly, why not spend that money on hiring more INS agents and equipping them with the latest non-lethal technologies? Not only will it create a hell of a lot more jobs for Americans, it has the added benefit of possibly working.
[/QUOTE]