[QUOTE=Lissa]
Instead of spending billions of dollars on what will almost certianly be a folly, why not spend that money on hiring more INS agents and equipping them with the latest non-lethal technologies? Not only will it create a hell of a lot more jobs for Americans, it has the added benefit of possibly working.
[/QUOTE]
Because nobody owns stock in the INS. 
-Joe
[QUOTE=Lissa]
[QUOTE=randyjet]
They also once thought that getting rid of the Jews was a pretty swell idea. Just because something has popular support does not make it the right (or smart) thing to do.
Instead of spending billions of dollars on what will almost certianly be a folly, why not spend that money on hiring more INS agents and equipping them with the latest non-lethal technologies? Not only will it create a hell of a lot more jobs for Americans, it has the added benefit of possibly working.
[/QUOTE]
Sorry folks, it is still early in the morning for me.
I am amazed at the lack of logic or knowledge of history in the last post. How keeping our borders secured from illegal aliens is the same as rounding up the Jews and millions of others and murdering them is too bizarre to see. The fact is that even among die hard Nazis, the Holocaust was NOT popular, remember Schindler’s List? There is NO law that prohibits a country from enforcing its borders or laws. Mexico is so much worse than the USA in that regard of rights of foreign born or naturalized citizens that it would be more like Nazi Germany than anything else.
The facts are that the border fence will indeed be quite effective as we have seen by the fact that the illegals now cross at more remote areas. One cannot have it both ways by saying the fence is ineffective and yet decrying the fact that it is forcing people out into the desert. I see that some people have no problem holding two contradictory opinions at the same time. They must be Bush supporters. John Kerry who I admire and worked for voted in favor of the border fencing and he authored the amendment to increase the BP by thousands to stop such illegals. He also had as one of his main priorities to secure our borders. Kerry, unlike Bush, actually does what he says he will do. Kerry did NOT say we will slow the flood to a trickle. He said he would STOP such influx. A border fence is but one more tool to do such a thing.
[QUOTE=randyjet]
I am amazed at the lack of logic or knowledge of history in the last post. How keeping our borders secured from illegal aliens is the same as rounding up the Jews and millions of others and murdering them is too bizarre to see.
[/quote]
Perhaps reading comprehension isn’t your forte. That’s okay, I’ll explain it to you. See, I said that just because an idea has widespread support it doesn’t make the idea a good one. I used the Holocaust as an example of something that had widespread support, but was a Bad Idea. Get it?
Mmm hmm. Read it and saw the movie. However, I tend not to get my history from fictionalized biographies. Read “Hitler’s Willing Executioners” if you want a book on this very subject.
Yeah, I know, the apologists would have people believe that Hitler was the only person who wanted the Jews dead, but the fact is that it took widespread cooperation among thousands to pull off the murder of over six million people.
If you wish to debate this further, start another thread on it.
You’re joking, right?
Here’s a little experiment you can try at home. Find an ant and put a barrier in front of it. Amazingly enough, the ant will walk around it, or find a way to climb over it. People are just as intelligent as ants. Sure, if there’s something in the way, they’ll walk around it, and lacking that, they’ll find a way under or over the barrier. They won’t just give up and go home. You are SERIOUSLY underestimating the determination of illegals.
Not I, but if that’s the best insult you can come up with, however early it may be, I’ll be just fine.
Huh. No wonder he lost.
Smart people can come up with dumb ideas. (Napoleon’s trip to the Battle of Waterloo wasn’t his brightest move.)
We have the right to secure our borders - there is no “human” right to live in the United States.
We get to pick and choose who comes in.
We have the right (and duty) to ensure that the ones allowed in do so following our laws.
Violate/ignore our laws and you’re out - for good!
History dealt us a good hand, probably the best ever; sorry if the worse hand that others got dealt troubles you so much that you want to throw away ours away.
[QUOTE=BwanaBob]
We have the right to secure our borders - there is no “human” right to live in the United States.
We get to pick and choose who comes in.
We have the right (and duty) to ensure that the ones allowed in do so following our laws.
Violate/ignore our laws and you’re out - for good!
History dealt us a good hand, probably the best ever; sorry if the worse hand that others got dealt troubles you so much that you want to throw away ours away.
[/QUOTE]
Sheesh, ignore the repeated away, forgot to preview as usual.
I would suggest that some folks read what the Mexican laws on the employment and rights of non-native born citizens are. If you are a naturalized citizen you are permanently a second class citizen for life. In some states of Mexico, BOTH parents must have been born in Mexico to even have any state related job. Until recently Pres. Fox was not eligible to even run for President because his mother was Spanish born. In other states he can not even run for office because of that fact. They are now on a tear to get rid of the less pure Mexicans who do not have both parents having been born in the country.
As for the fact that some people will still get through, the fact is that is no argument at all since there is no barrier or fence that is 100%. It WILL stop most of the illegals though which is the whole point. One way or another the fence will be built and will also expand as needed.
[QUOTE=randyjet]
As for the fact that some people will still get through, the fact is that is no argument at all since there is no barrier or fence that is 100%. It WILL stop most of the illegals though which is the whole point. One way or another the fence will be built and will also expand as needed.
[/QUOTE]
Anything other than optimism give you a reason to think that a fence will stop more than 50% of them?
And of course, we won’t be able to deport any of the Mexicans currently in this country…if we do, they might get ahold of our top secret L-A-D-D-E-R technology. Once they get that our fence will only slow them down a little bit.
-Joe
[QUOTE=Merijeek]
Anything other than optimism give you a reason to think that a fence will stop more than 50% of them?
And of course, we won’t be able to deport any of the Mexicans currently in this country…if we do, they might get ahold of our top secret L-A-D-D-E-R technology. Once they get that our fence will only slow them down a little bit.
-Joe
[/QUOTE]
I would suggest you go to the Minuteman Project site and see their design which I think is more than adequate. If it will stop terrorists in Israel, I think it will be just as effective here. Or we could see what the Eu is constructing and see what they are doing in that regard for their fence along the border with Russia and the Ukraine.
As I said, it is not supposed to be impregnable, but enough to enable a limited number of BP agents to stop them. That is all that is required of it.
The only way to stop illegal immigration is to stop the incentive.,jobs that provide better than those at home. The employers can be stopped. If the penalties were severe enough the problem could be handled.No fence will stop them .The borders are too long. A couple of the 911 terrorists came in through Canada…Theres a huge border there to contend with. NAFTA was supposed to include environmental rules and ways to raise the standard of employment in Mexico. It was gutted and the illegal immigration problem was not solved.
[QUOTE=randyjet]
As I said, it is not supposed to be impregnable, but enough to enable a limited number of BP agents to stop them. That is all that is required of it.
[/QUOTE]
So they time it right. How many BP agents you have? How many places can they be in at once?
Looking to the Minutemen for the ultimate solution for this is like looking to the PNAC on peace in the Mideast or the KKK for the blueprint on how we can all get along.
-Joe
[QUOTE=randyjet]
I If it will stop terrorists in Israel, I think it will be just as effective here.
[/QUOTE]
Israel eliminated terrorism?
You really really really need to come up with better arguments. Israel has a fence, and has had many attacks this year alone. We don’t have such a fence, and we’ve had none in years.
By the way, you seem to be ranting more than debating. I can’t help but think you blame immigrants on something personal.
[QUOTE=BwanaBob]
History dealt us a good hand, probably the best ever; sorry if the worse hand that others got dealt troubles you so much that you want to throw away ours away.
[/QUOTE]
Other than perhaps Bin Laden and his ilk, who wants to throw our’s away?
[QUOTE=randyjet]
If it will stop terrorists in Israel, I think it will be just as effective here.
[/QUOTE]
What makes you think it will stop terrorists in Israel?
[QUOTE=randyjet]
Or we could see what the Eu is constructing and see what they are doing in that regard for their fence along the border with Russia and the Ukraine.
[/QUOTE]
Cite?
[QUOTE=randyjet]
I can care less about your emotional state which judging from the lack of arguments is about all that you have going for you. I hardly think that observing that fences have different purposes is all that hard to fathom, except for some. A gun in a cops hand is good, one in a crooks hand is bad. The gun is neutral, as is a fence, but it is the purpose of it that matters as well as its effectiveness.
My real point in bring up the new eastern European fence is that they have personal hard experience in using fences to surpress them and their rights. Yet they feel that such a new fence is NOT an infringment of their new found liberty, but a means to secure it. I think that they are right.
[/QUOTE]
No, I didn´t give you an argument, I gave you something to think about.
You came here praising the wall around Eastern Germany as an example of what works, you know why it worked?, could it be the wall and barbed wire?, or the mined, booby-trapped “death strip”? or that it was the most militarized border at the time, or maybe the guards that shooted to kill anyone attempting to cross?. That´s what you defend as a solution to stop illegal immigration and imaginary terrorists???
Yes, imaginary terrorist because so far there hasn´t been a single case of terrorism on the USA commited by people that entered illegaly, now has it?; I´ll tell you why, because as a professional evil doer, if you have two brain cells to rub together you do things legally, why risking getting caught in the middle of the dessert when you can get thorugh legal channels without raising any suspicion?
And by golly!, that´s what happened in every case; coincidence, I don´t think so.
Second argument, the USA needs immigration at far greater rates than it legally accepts. If tomorrow all borders would be shut close with friggin´ laser barriers you´ll have the legislature rushing an expansion of immigration quotas faster than you can say “inflation”. Pretty soon a very large “native” generation would go into retirement and there´ll be need for a young, active working population to keep things going for the aging population.
Third argument, the USA is a nation of immigrants, those whacky moon rockets?, a german was behind that, the same with the bomb that won WWII where by the way, the highest condecorated soldier wasn´t exactly John Smith; these days you´d be hard pressed to read a science article about a new discovery where a good part of the research team (or they parents) weren´t born under the Star Spangled Banner.
Fourth argument, if you want to stop waves of people from escaping from poverty to the promise of a better life you should at least, stop the activities that harm the economies of countries in development, namely the huge subsides in farming activities that send world marked prices to the floor, prices on which a large part of the poor countries base their subsistance. (and to be fair Europe should do the same)
Fifth, how come that all those people coming into the USA find employments?, I mean, what´s the unemployment rate nowadays, 5%?, doesn´t sound like a swamped market too me. Evidently there isn´t a low demand for workers or you´ll be seeing much higher unemployment rates. So people come in, they find a job that nobody was doing and start working.
That is so because employers crave for low paid hands to keep their explenses low and profits high, you don´t like that?, adress the employers not the people to whome they employ. By the way you just raised the street price of many products.
By now, to be honest I don´t want to keep giving arguments why I think a wall is a simplistic, innefective immigration policy; I´d rather go back to the workbench and do something more productive.
[QUOTE=Ale]
No, I didn´t give you an argument, I gave you something to think about.
You came here praising the wall around Eastern Germany as an example of what works, you know why it worked?, could it be the wall and barbed wire?, or the mined, booby-trapped “death strip”? or that it was the most militarized border at the time, or maybe the guards that shooted to kill anyone attempting to cross?. That´s what you defend as a solution to stop illegal immigration and imaginary terrorists?
The FACT is that fences work. That is why there are so many of them and I would bet that most folks even have them around their yards as well. You adapt them for their function. The former states of eastern Europe and the EU think enough of them to make one of their own to keep out illegals from Russia.
Yes, imaginary terrorist because so far there hasn´t been a single case of terrorism on the USA commited by people that entered illegaly, now has it?; I´ll tell you why, because as a professional evil doer, if you have two brain cells to rub together you do things legally, why risking getting caught in the middle of the dessert when you can get thorugh legal channels without raising any suspicion?
And by golly!, that´s what happened in every case; coincidence, I don´t think so.
The fact is that there was NO need to do anything illegal prior to 9/11 for entry and I guess you forget that it ever happened, and the terrorists are NOT imaginary. Just ask any New Yorker if it was all just a bad dream and the WTC is still really there. It is now much harder for somebody to enter the US with a visa or get one. But that does not make any sense if all they have to do is walk across the border with any amount of explosives or whatever that they want. By not having a fence and beefing up border security to deny illegal entry, all other measures are futile.
The rest of the so called argument in nonsense since it deals with immigration which is NOT the subject. I find it funny that no argument on the subject can be done without the side for open borders citing immigration. The idea of a fence does NOT mean the end of immigration. Just the END of ILLEGAL immigration. The two are quite different and I personally love to have the diversity of all the different groups that make up the USA. IT is the difference between sex and rape. One is quite nice and people love it, the other is the opposite even though it is the same physical act. It is time to stop the RAPE of our borders and laws.
[QUOTE=randyjet]
It is time to stop the RAPE of our borders and laws.
[/QUOTE]
Word of advice: ludicrous hyperbole does not, in fact, strengthen your argument.
[QUOTE=randyjet]
The rest of the so called argument in nonsense since it deals with immigration which is NOT the subject. I find it funny that no argument on the subject can be done without the side for open borders citing immigration. The idea of a fence does NOT mean the end of immigration. Just the END of ILLEGAL immigration. The two are quite different and I personally love to have the diversity of all the different groups that make up the USA. IT is the difference between sex and rape. One is quite nice and people love it, the other is the opposite even though it is the same physical act. It is time to stop the RAPE of our borders and laws.
[/QUOTE]
Then I assume you’re fine with us closing the border to those without authorization, but giving authorization to anyone who wants to get in, with no major paperwork hassles, no waiting times, no family restrictions, no special skills, and absolutely no quotas, so long as we are convinced that they aren’t terrorists, correct?
[QUOTE=randyjet]
The fact is that there was NO need to do anything illegal prior to 9/11 for entry and I guess you forget that it ever happened, and the terrorists are NOT imaginary. Just ask any New Yorker if it was all just a bad dream and the WTC is still really there.
[/QUOTE]
First, I would strongly urge you to stop trying to tell other posters what they have forgotten or misunderstood or been ignorant of. If you cannot express your own views without pretending to represent the claims of others, (and doing it badly), your argument is probably not sufficiently sound to stand on its own.
Now, in regards to this particular claim, please identify for us which of the hijackers sneaked across the border to the U.S. from another country by crossing at a point where there was no fence.
Your insistence that fences “work” has not been demonstrated. You constantly appeal to rhetoric while ignoring the physical reality of the situations to which you allude.
You have failed to provide a citation to your claim that the EU states are currently erecting fences. You have consistently avoided addressing the differences between your vague appeal for a “fence” and the heavily guarded barriers set up by the Iron Curtain countries that included minefields, an enormous outlay of manpower, shoot-to-kill orders, and other aspects of their borders in which it is unlikely that the U.S. would ever find it worthwhile (financially, ethically, or legally) to invest.
[QUOTE=randyjet]
The idea of a fence does NOT mean the end of immigration. Just the END of ILLEGAL immigration.
[/QUOTE]
Yeah, sure, just ask Spain how well that fence thing is working out for them. Because I’m sure that universal human nature is such that when a desperate person sees a barrier, he’ll just turn around and go home.