TIP!!!! TIP!!!! Tip you motherfucking yuppie cheapskate bastards. TIP!!!!

[Una_Persson]

*Originally posted by oldscratch *
As for not paying taxes? I can put forward several arguments. First, I would rather spend my money on direct contributions to need (a 5 to the homless guy with the “Spare cash, for white trash” sign every morning), and on overthrowing our current government than spending it to buy pepper spray that will in the future be dabbed in my face, or training for future death squad leaders, or etc etc.

Or paying for bridges, roads, public lighting, Medicare, Welfare, police protection, clean air and water, student grants and loan guarantees…this is a very libertarian attitude, and seems at odds with some past social attitudes you have espoused, as UncleBeer mentioned.

Now. If I were in a position to pay taxes, I wouldn’t go out of my way to keep them from the government. But, I’m not going to bother myself and go to all the trouble of finding my earnings, figuring out what I should add in taxes, and reporting that at tax time.

If I were you then, I would not attempt college. It’s quite a bit more work and difficulty than counting tips and filling out a 1040 EZ, and if that is too much difficulty, well…

The government already has plenty of money withheld from my last job.

Yeah, I guess you’re off the hook now. :rolleyes:

**As for not being paid a wage and not reporting. It’s just easier. Last night I made $150 for 5 hours work. All cash. Sure, I might havee made a little more if I reported taxes, got a check, got paid minimum wage (which btw is $5.75 something in CA, even for bar work). But I like my arangement. It’s easy and hastle free. **

Thanks, this has been educational. As I understand it from what you write, the reason I should tip the bartender ALWAYS (as you said) is so they can make the hourly equivalent of more than $60,000 a year ($30 per hour) and not pay any taxes or social security on it. Which equates to a tax-paying Gross Income of about $85,000 to $90,000 per year.

I see.

And I’m the one who is probably characterized as the “greedy, money-obsessed yuppie scum”. That’s just crap-tacular.

Wow. I can just see you laughing your ass off in front of your monitor as you think of all those dumbshits out there paying their taxes and supporting society. I must really seem to be a stupid fuck in your eyes, along with 99.9% of the entire SDMB.

Well, as to this, there’s only one thing I can add. You have never offended me with anything you ever wrote before. This last bit offends me so much I really can’t even flame you back, as I find it absolutely disgusting.

And oh yes, I will now think twice about tipping out of guilt. In fact, you can count yourself successful at putting an end to me ever tipping the bartender more than 10-15%. IF I do so at all.

Una (who, unlike oldscratch, paid her fair share of taxes every year, even when she was a starving college student making minimum wage and tips (which were 100% claimed as revenue). Guess I was stupid, for supporting my country and doing my fair share, huh? Jesus Fucking Christ.)

[Bareedy]

I must agree with the people that posted about service being an issue for tipping.

So far, service in the US is the best I’ve seen ANYWHERE. For instance, when I first visited the Cheesecake Factory with some American friends, the waiter sat down at our table and explained to me about every single kind of cheesecake, which are good or bad, etc. It was above and beyond the call of duty and it made that dining experience unique -and yes, I tipped him very well (though I can’t remember how much, I usually tip 20 percent but I remember adding to it.) Was he sincere or was it just get a good tip? I don’t know and I don’t care, I enjoyed myself and that’s the whole point of eating out.

Another time, I went to the HardRock Cafe with my best friend, the restaurant was closed, only the bar was open (it was almost 11 at night). The waiter opened up the restaurant for us so we can have dinner…the meal was 20 dollars and I tipped him 10, because he did something he didn’t have to do. I never got service like that in France, or any other European country for that matter.

Appreciate your waiters and waitresses America, you don’t know what you’re missing.

[Una_Persson]

And yes, I know you will claim that you can’t make that $30 per hour you quoted every hour of every week. I understand that. But you are probably still making a very considerable amount of cash.

Have fun.

[wireless]

*Originally posted by oldscratch *
**I’m actually not complaining that I don’t get paid enough. I do. …

If I were in a position to pay taxes, …

Last night I made $150 for 5 hours work. **

WTF?

**
But I like my arangement. It’s easy and hastle free. **

Oh, I get it now. It’s not about the money or philosophy about the government (or personal responsibility or being a member of a society). It’s about the hastle [sic]. Wish I’d known that years ago! :rolleyes:

[Flyhalf]

*Originally posted by Anthracite *

I am by no means “rich”, and certainly would never brag that I am.
**

No digs here and I have enjoyed most of your posts. I just thought the use of the word “wealthy” was an interesting choice. Nothing to get upset about… (d & r!!)

[Una_Persson]

*Originally posted by Flyhalf *
**

*Originally posted by Anthracite *

I am by no means “rich”, and certainly would never brag that I am.

No digs here and I have enjoyed most of your posts. I just thought the use of the word “wealthy” was an interesting choice. Nothing to get upset about… (d & r!!)**

Fair enough, thank you very much for clarifying for me.

“Wealthy” really is indeed a relative term, as I found out in this thread I may not be nearly as wealthy as many bartenders, so it seems…

[oldscratch]

*Originally posted by Anthracite *
**
Or paying for bridges, roads, public lighting, Medicare, Welfare, police protection, clean air and water, student grants and loan guarantees…this is a very libertarian attitude, and seems at odds with some past social attitudes you have espoused, as UncleBeer mentioned.
**

Not really…(jesus, can I be in any thread without socialism coming up? I give it 12 posts till someone rolls out the CHEKA. tradesilicon?)

Let’s see. I’m not actually working a 40 hour week. Not even close. And I’m not getting any kind of benfits. I’m making about 600 a week. That puts me at $30,000 a year, if I’m generous (take days off and so forth). Going over to the IRS website I’m looking at aproximately $5,000 dollars that I’m withholding from the government. Whoopdedoo. I’m definetely putting that money to better uses. Of course, I’m not even sure how much longer I’ll have this job, how much will actually be made, and how much I’ll actually be keeping from the government. And if you think that this conflicts go back and read more of my threads.
If it makes you feel any better, I’ll very likely be paying more than my fair share of taxes this year. The income withheld from my last job will make sure of that. Frankly, it doesn’t bother me one way or the other.

Let me make this clear. My employer is not taking the taxes from me, as I have no idealogical reason to go to the effort to pay them, I’m choosing not to. I would not, and do not go to the effort to withhold my taxes from the government. However, I’m not going to go out of my way to give them money either.

**I would not attempt college. It’s quite a bit more work and difficulty than counting tips and filling out a 1040 EZ, and if that is too much difficulty, well…

**

Thanks. I’ll keep that in mind.

**
Thanks, this has been educational. As I understand it from what you write, the reason I should tip the bartender ALWAYS (as you said) is so they can make the hourly equivalent of more than $60,000 a year ($30 per hour) and not pay any taxes or social security on it. Which equates to a tax-paying Gross Income of about $85,000 to $90,000 per year.

**

A little testy? Let’s go over it again.

I am not typical of most bartenders. Most do indeed have wages withheld and pay taxes. Bartenders, rarely work full time. The cost of living is such in SF, that to afford an average 1 bedroom apartment, you need to make over $18 dollars an hour. I work in a busy club. Most bartenders do not. I can garauntee you that if someone isn’t tipping me, they are stiffing other people out there. Like it or not, most bartenders are relying on your tips to survive. They are providing a service for you and expect to be compensated for it. By not compensating them, you are indeed being rude.

**
And I’m the one who is probably characterized as the “greedy, money-obsessed yuppie scum”. That’s just crap-tacular.

**

Well actually I never called anyone greedy or money obsessed. My words were "satanic yuppie anti-patriotic commie atheists ". Don’t get so held up on the title of the thread. Relax a bit, you’ll live longer.

**
Wow. I can just see you laughing your ass off in front of your monitor as you think of all those dumbshits out there paying their taxes and supporting society. I must really seem to be a stupid fuck in your eyes, along with 99.9% of the entire SDMB.

**

Yep that’s it exactly. I’m so full of my own superioritym that sometimes I can’t even bare to post or read this board. It’s just too much, lowering myself to the peons level.

**
Well, as to this, there’s only one thing I can add. You have never offended me with anything you ever wrote before.

**

Really? Wow. I’m not doing my job then. I’ve even managed to offend Olentzero on several occasions, and he’s a commie too.

**
And oh yes, I will now think twice about tipping out of guilt. In fact, you can count yourself successful at putting an end to me ever tipping the bartender more than 10-15%. IF I do so at all.

**

Well if that’s the case, I have no qualms about calling you a greedy, spitefull, easily offended, asshole. And don’t be suprised if your drinks taste off.

** Guess I was stupid, for supporting my country and doing my fair share, huh? Jesus Fucking Christ.) **

See this is my problem with people. You get all upset about someone not p[aying taxes. Yet I don’t see the same moral outrage over innocent people being put to death, people denying women a right to choose, Cisco (who should be paying far more than $5,000, in taxes) not paying any income tax, Pinochet still being alive, or any of the other countless injustices aroud the world. Maybe it’s just me, but I have a hard time feeling sorry/bad for people getting mugged, getting robbed, cheating on taxes, cheating on welfare, getting cancer, when farankly there are worse things out there. Maybe the large issues are just that, too large. Instead you have to focus your anger on individuals. I just can’t do that. As such, I really do have a hard time understanding why you’re so upset.

[Una_Persson]

*Originally posted by oldscratch *
**See this is my problem with people. You get all upset about someone not p[aying taxes. Yet I don’t see the same moral outrage over innocent people being put to death, people denying women a right to choose, Cisco (who should be paying far more than $5,000, in taxes) not paying any income tax, Pinochet still being alive, or any of the other countless injustices aroud the world. Maybe it’s just me, but I have a hard time feeling sorry/bad for people getting mugged, getting robbed, cheating on taxes, cheating on welfare, getting cancer, when farankly there are worse things out there. Maybe the large issues are just that, too large. Instead you have to focus your anger on individuals. I just can’t do that. As such, I really do have a hard time understanding why you’re so upset. **

My dear, why do you think that I don’t get angry over those things? You almost make it sound that if anyone ever criticizes you, they are doing an injustice, because they should be criticizing “the system”? This is an often used arguement among the left, BTW. “Why are you mad at me for stealing this? Aren’t there greater injustices in the World? How can it compare to the Holocaust?” And so forth.

Yes, there are greater injustices. I bring your attention to the fact that none of these things are the topic of this thread. So please don’t do the old Pinochet bait-and-switch on me, it will not work.

You keep referring to the income withheld from your last job, which somehow justifies you not paying taxes. Did someone illegally withhold income from you? Do you have a refund and have not received it? Don’t you realize you have legal remedies for these? It’s put up or shut up time here - either you had withheld what the law said needed to be, or someone broke the law. Or, you are just searching in vain for some - any - justification you can create for not paying taxes.

You yourself proudly claim that you don’t even need to work full time to get $30,000 a year. Wow. I had to actually go to college and bust my ass - paying taxes while I worked through school, mind you - to earn that much. And it’s not even clear to you yet - that is $30,000 without paying taxes! Which for me (one of those dumb fucks that obeys the motherfucking law and their committment to society) would equate to about $40,000. And you don’t even work full-time. Are you missing something here? Poor you. :rolleyes:

I also didn’t call you any interesting names, even though you saw fit to call me a “greedy, spitefull, easily offended, asshole”. Let’s start some class warfare while we are at it - me in the middle class, versus you in the non-tax-paying middle class. This should be productive. Not.

Am I the only one here bothered by this? Or the only one that will actually speak up on this? Is it really that understandable among those reading this to just not pay taxes, and complain that you only make $30,000-tax-free a year not working full time even?

If so, then I will leave this thread and bid you peace, and fond wishes that your life turns out well for you, oldscratch, and that you always have someone to love, and to love you in return.

[Guinastasia]

OS-don’t you even file income taxes?

[occ]

*Originally posted by oldscratch *
**I do not get a wage. The only money I make is through tips. If you do not tip me, I am performing work for you, for free.
**

I understand your rant, but think about this: most of the customers probably don’t realize that you don’t receive a wage. Is it typical for bartenders not to be paid a wage? Do you literally receive only what you make in tips? While I have no idea how the customers could be informed of this without being overly blunt, it may just be a case of people not knowing what the deal is.

[Danielinthewolvesden]

OldS, my freind. You have a moral duty to pay your taxes. When you cheat on your taxes, you are not cheating “the Government”, you are cheating every single citizen & resident of the United States- wealthly & poor, widows, orphans, blacks, whites, gays, deserving & undeserving. You are cheating the Moderators, the Administrators, most of the posters, and lastly -ME. But most importantly, you are cheating yourself. I am disappointed in you.

[Gary_Kumquat]

This is good - a rant about people who don’t pay tips from a guy who doesn’t pay taxes. Can we start a new “Pay your taxes you motherfucking bartender cheapskate bastards” thread?

[manhattan]

*Originally posted by oldscratch *
** I’m making about 600 a week. That puts me at $30,000 a year, if I’m generous (take days off and so forth). Going over to the IRS website I’m looking at aproximately $5,000 dollars that I’m withholding from the government. Whoopdedoo. **

Oops. Forgot about FICA there, chief. That’s another $4,500, including the employer’s contribution, which tipped employees are required by law to pay themselves. And medicare. Call that $500 or so at your income level. And unemployment insurance. A bargain at 50 bucks or so. And California state income tax. What are the rates out there? Does San Francisco have a separate income tax?

I’m definetely putting that money to better uses.

Interestingly, I can think of better uses for the money I pay in taxes, too. Go figure.

[UncleBeer]

[sup]Originally posted by UncleBeer:[/sup]

It appears to me that your convictions stop at the point you actually have to contribute to that social utopia; you want the benefits, indeed seem to think they are owed you, but are unwilling to pay the costs.

Thanks for validating my observations, oldscratch.

[Dinsdale]

So what is your beef, oldscratch - that some folk don’t tip, or that you simply want to make more money? You presently make $30G cash for a part-time job. (How many hrs/wk?) What is that, $20/hr? How much do you think you should make? $1 per drink for $4-500 on a good night? Not a bad gig.

Even using your suspect calculations, you are avoiding $5G in taxes. Please impute my missing tip to your unpaid taxes. Hey! Looks like I tip 17%. Ain’t I the generous one!

And Anthracite, baby, you’re in the “wealthy” class!

[oldscratch]

From Anth
**Yes, there are greater injustices. I bring your attention to the fact that none of these things are the topic of this thread. So please don’t do the old Pinochet bait-and-switch on me, it will not work. **

As soon as I saw this, I had an image of you criticizing me. Me pulling out Augusto Pinochet, handing him to you, and running off. And you stuck there holding a decrepit former dictator with a look of surprise in your eyes, yelling “come back, wait!” I’m sorry. It’s still cracking me up. Does anyone else get this image?

Anyway. It seems like you are genuinely upset about this. For me, I can’t comprehend that. Really I can’t. I was just coming at it from my experience and trying too.

anyway. not a major point. If you want to be pset, go for it.

**You keep referring to the income withheld from your last job, which somehow justifies you not paying taxes. Did someone illegally withhold income from you? Do you have a refund and have not received it? Don’t you realize you have legal remedies for these? It’s put up or shut up time here - either you had withheld what the law said needed to be, or someone broke the law. Or, you are just searching in vain for some - any - justification you can create for not paying taxes.

**

I’m not searching for any justification, I don’t need any. I was refering to the fact that you seem to be upset about me not putting my fair share in. Last night I went and looked at my stubs from my last job (which I ended this year), did a quick calculation of what I’ve made so far at my current job, added up the two incomes, and figured out how much of a refund I’ll get. If I don’t make any more money this year, I’ll still be entitled to a $1,231 refund. Of course I don’t bother to file, so the government gets to keep the money. This is assuming that I don’t make any more this year, unlikely. Also it’s assuming that I don’t get a job where they start witholding again, also unlikely. So if your ire is based on the fact that I’m not paying my fair share of taxes, save it. I am. I simply don’t care if I am or not. It’s not something that keeps me up at night, or bothers me in any way.

True you didn’t call me any names, you did go out of your way to be insulting though.

**Am I the only one here bothered by this? Or the only one that will actually speak up on this? Is it really that understandable among those reading this to just not pay taxes, and complain that you only make $30,000-tax-free a year not working full time even?

**

Did I complain that I wasn’t making enough a year? Nope. Again, if that is what you’re upset about, I really don’t understand, as I’m not complaiing that I don’t make enough.

Guinastasia
**OS-don’t you even file income taxes?

**

As I said earlier. Nope.

DITWD
**OldS, my freind. You have a moral duty to pay your taxes. When you cheat on your taxes, you are not cheating “the Government”, you are cheating every single citizen & resident of the United States- wealthly & poor, widows, orphans, blacks, whites, gays, deserving & undeserving. You are cheating the Moderators, the Administrators, most of the posters, and lastly -ME. But most importantly, you are cheating yourself. I am disappointed in you.

**

What is that? About .02 cents per person? I could live with that. I’m sorry, I feel no “moral duty” to pay taxes to the United States government. I do feel a “moral duty” to give money to homeless people, to do some of the various things I do. Paying taxes doesn’t fit in there. In comes down to differing sets of morals. Others believe certain tasks are “moral duties” that you would have no part in Daniel. I’ve done many things in my life that some people would decry as “immoral” or wrong. About an equal number of people would probably aplaud them, and think I did the right thing.

For Manhattan

oops. Forgot about that. You’re right. So that’s $10,000 a year or so. Then you would have to figure in CA income taxes (which I’m not sure of). Then you would have to take out the ammount I put in an IRA. Then you would have to factor in the increased ammount of spending that I carry out and how much of that is taken in sales tax (which is 8.5% here). All in all it’s probably around $10,000.

**Interestingly, I can think of better uses for the money I pay in taxes, too. Go figure.

**

If you forget to pay taxes next year, I’ll be right there defending you against people who state you have a moral duty to do so.

From UncleBeer
**Thanks for validating my observations, oldscratch.

**

You seem to be unable to grasp the difference between paying taxes to the USA and fighting for socialism and indeed supporting socialism once it’s up and running. I don’t want to get into it, but it would be akin to someone refusing to pay taxes to the imperial government of King George, yet at the same time fighting for an American Revolution, and gladly paying taxes under said government. I’m sure you can understand that.

From Dinsdale
**So what is your beef, oldscratch - that some folk don’t tip, or that you simply want to make more money? You presently make $30G cash for a part-time job. (How many hrs/wk?) What is that, $20/hr? How much do you think you should make? $1 per drink for $4-500 on a good night? Not a bad gig. **

I don’t want to make more money. Wait scratch that. I’m not upset with the ammount of money I’m making. I could be making less and I’d be perfectly happy. What pisses me off is the people who don’t tip. That’s it. I feel they should tip, they don’t. Some people believe they don’t have to tip because they are “attractive”. Some believe they don’t have to tip because they “can’t afford it”. Some just don’t know any better.

[Dinsdale]

Fraid I don’t understand that. Why does it matter to you whether they tip or not, if not to give more $ to the server?
Would you be happy if, instead of money, I gave you a really sincere compliment? Or stepped outside and gave a buck to the nearest panhandler? Or checked the box to give $1 to the presidential campaigns?

[oldscratch]

Because if they aren’t tipping 1 bartender, they aren’t tipping another. I also give 20-25% of my tips to the barback. If they don’t tip me, he get’s less money. Basicly, they are asking me to perform a service for them for no compensation. Something I am reluctant to do. The main reason is that I have a lot of friends who are bartenders. Some nights they don’t make very good money. Why? Because they get a large crowd of people who don’t tip very well.

The median income in SF $32,778. That does not make someone making $30,000 middle class. The cost of living per year for a single parent with one child is $44,172 in SF. I don’t know any bartenders that make that.

[Dinsdale]

Just curious. Do you tip a salesperson in a clothing store? Even if you ask them to check in the back for your size? What if they wrap it up nicely in a gift box? No? You mean you expect them to provide a service for you without compensating them? How bout the plumber who rods out your toilet? You mean, you didn’t know they had a deal with their employer where they get paid off the books? I make a habit of slipping a lotto ticket to the person who rings me up at the grocery store.
That said, I tip in bars, but nowhere near what you’d like.

[tradesilicon]

Hey, oldscratch, you invited me this time buddy, here it comes:

You have successfully argued for Libertarianinsm and agaist communism in this thread with the following logic:
‘I know better what to do with that money anyway’
‘I don’t feel like my 5K is a big deal, others make up for it’

This is simple and to the point. I’m not looking to restart that whole debate, but you just put it so well, I could not help but point it out.

Chiaou, I’ll try to stop by some time with major tips for ya.(Being the wealthy capitalist pig and all).

sili

PS - I’ll bring along a 1040 for your convenience