With that logic I would never buy products whose supply chains reach back to third world countries.
Which I am not willing to do. More power to the people who follow that code, but I’d be a hypocrite to invoke it halfheartedly. So no, my ethical framework does not force me to feel responsible. Wrt ethics the tip would be positive but not tipping is not unethical, in my opinion.
If I thought I was not paying a reasonable amount for the service provided, that’s different. That I would consider unethical. But I do think I’m paying a reasonable price for the service.
Sounds like the system was explicitly designed to allow DoorDash to claim their drivers get 100% of the tip, while at the same time reducing the effective value of that tip by encouraging drivers to “bid” on jobs at the lowest price possible.
Anyone really worried about exploitation or ethics probably shouldn’t be using these services at all, regardless of how they tip.
There’s a lot to this, IMO. For the most part, I don’t use convenience services because I have better uses for my money. I do carry out a lot these days, but I’m the one who delivers it to my table.
No, you’re a hypocrite now for acknowledging the issue and making lame excuses for doing nothing. Doing something would in every conceivable way be better.
These drivers are independent contractors with no hourly wage or benefits, who have to pay both halves of their FICA and use their own vehicle, and probably make less than minimum wage many days after the mileage deduction. There’s a good chance they have a health issue or family reason (schools closed, no daycare, sick family members, etc) they do gigs rather than having a low-wage hourly job with mandatory overtime and automatic termination for getting sick or any other number of reasons they need the “flexibility.” A lot of these deliveries pay 2 or 3 bucks without the tip. Then they have to deal with customers (not accusing you this at all) who blame them for the restaurant screwing the orders, people who don’t understand they aren’t cooks and certified food handlers, restaurant owners who expect them to do unpaid labor for the orders, etc. They are one car repair (these “business owners” doing $2 gigs aren’t exactly well-capitalized with backup fleets) from having no income at all.
Yes, I understand you are spending a lot as it is and don’t want to add more to that total. But IMHO, if you are willing to pay higher menu prices plus extra fees to have cheap food delivered, then a tip is part of the expectation. It’s the same thing with going out to eat and protesting the tipping culture. If you can afford to go out to eat at a sit down restaurant (with the menu prices being artificially lowered by the wages of the serving staff), you can afford to tip. Since I’ve had a family with kids, I rarely go out to eat because I can’t really afford meals that cost more than a week of groceries. I guess I could shop all the bargains and free kids meals and discounts and stuff and then stiff the server, but I won’t. Instead I rarely go out and when I do I save it for something actually enjoyable and tip generously.
I’ve been ordering pizza online for 22 years, in the “old system” (in-house employees delivering). And almost every time I’ve ordered I recall seeing something like “delivery fee does not go to driver, please tip your driver.” So it’s always been my default assumption that I’m paying extra for delivery PLUS a tip, and that’s under the OLD model.
That said, I’ve had some relatives who did pizza delivery and depending on who it was they got an hourly wage plus sometimes a higher wage if they were in the store doing other tasks, plus a fee per delivery. And then kept all their tips. I can’t see paying a contractor less than a regular delivery employee (as a consumer). I can’t claim ignorance. If I was willing to pay an hourly employee a tip plus a fee to the restaurant as a standard practice, I’m not going to stiff the contractor.
This sounds like a rather horrible and exploitative model. And it sounds like a model where i feel more, not less, inclined to tip enough that the driver gets a decent wage.
I’d heard vague things about how these companies are financially problematic for the restaurants, (independent of how they treat the drivers) so i tend to order takeout, not delivery. But when we were quarantining, we really couldn’t do takeout, and we did get one or two doordash deliveries.
I’ve never used doordash or any of those personally. There is a pizza place (that actually has a whole lot more than pizza) practically in my backyard that I will order from. I usually get take out and get it on my way home, but if I’m at home and feeling comfy, I’ll sometimes get delivery.
When I do, I tip well enough that the driver seems to be pretty appreciative, especially since it’s about a mile drive.
OTOH, my employees sometimes do get delivery at work, and if they are ordering from a place that sounds good, sometimes, I’ll get something too. I have no idea what they are actually paying or tipping (or whether my contribution to the pot is actually fair), but when I am getting food too, I throw the driver an extra fiver in cash.
But usually, I have leftovers from last night’s dinner, or I get takeout from one of the restaurants in the same strip mall.
I’ll agree with the OP that the whole tipping thing is a bit of a scam, but the victims of the scam are not the customer, they are the delivery person, and I do my best, if I am going to be using the system, to make sure I’m not part of the grift at their expense.
Why these business models need to be included in minimum wage requirements. Because it’s the owner scamming both the worker and the customer. Let’s pay honest prices up front as they do in Europe.
The amount DoorDash pays in base pay and promotions will never vary based on the tip amount.
Based on my reading of their payment policy, my guess is that your driver is typically getting $2 plus whatever you tip. That’s $2, plus your tip, to drive to the restaurant, potentially wait for it to be finished if the restaurant is slower than the app expects, pick up the food, ensure that it isn’t going to leak all over their car, deliver it to your office and possibly hunt you down once there.
If you’re not going to tip, they’re doing all of that for $2. I don’t put on socks for $2.
As others have said, if you want to be the person that screws the drivers, be that person. Don’t pretend that it’s not your fault that you’re screwing them when armed with the necessary information to make that determination.
Back in the day, I would often have Friday nights where I could afford a few beers or a nice dinner for two, but not if I tipped appropriately. My choice was to not go out until I could afford to do so including the tip. You are welcome to choose differently and we’re welcome to explain who you are harming when doing so.
Thanks for the link. I notice that the $2 is a minimum: “Base pay from DoorDash to Dashers ranges from $2-$10+ per delivery depending on the estimated duration, distance, and desirability of the order.” But also, I assume the driver has to cover any expenses, like fuel for their vehicle, from that base pay.
It is indeed the minimum but my guess is that your typical lunch order is nearby, moderately quick, and small, thus probably leaning heavily towards the $2 number.
You’ve failed to include other expenses delivery drivers incur besides gas. in addition to wear and tear on their cars, delivery drivers today pay higher rates for car insurance, as their vehicles are commercial use and are on the road so much.
The unfair system you described, where DoorDash driver tips went mostly to offsetting DoorDash’s contribution toward the guarantee, rather than increasing the Dasher’s take. was dropped in 2019 after consumer backlash from a New York Times article that detailed the difficult and sometimes dangerous work of food delivery drivers.
Nor is life measurably better for delivery drivers who work for restaurants. From the NYT:
Wow, you must have lived and delivered pizzas in a very chintzy city. I’ve lived in a number of places, and not tipping a driver because he “only” drove 1 or 2 miles was never a common practice. Only a$$holes did that. Besides, life has changed these past 6 years. The work of a driver, who often delivers for multiple apps, is far different from what you did when driving for one pizza place.
Re: you’re “I’m not tipping in advance” stance: If the tip is paid via credit card, as it usually is today, it’s really got to be added to the bill before you pay. Even if it were set up so that customers paid the tip via credit card after delivery, you’re either going to have to do it via the driver and her little machine (awkward and time-consuming) or go back to the app, which few people would do.
If you hate the corporate policies of food delivery corporations, contact them. If you’re not willing to do that, you must not be that righteously indignant about the issue.
In that case I would expect to have my order go unfulfilled, since no contractors in their right mind would take that request. I can’t really feel sorry for them if they are losing money on a contract they have the discretion to turn down…
It may be part of someone’s expectation, but with the tip added to all those fees the service is not worth its price to me. I wouldn’t be willing to pay it. How the money is doled out behind the scenes has zero effect on whether I think a service is worth its price / whether I’m willing to pay that price.
You have this backwards; it’s “if you can’t afford to tip you can’t afford to eat out”. But the reasons I tip waitstaff at a restaurant don’t apply in the case of food delivery services.
How I approach tips for food at a restaurant
Why this isn’t a reason to tip for food via a delivery service
I will tip well when I personally enjoy the service and the server is friendly with me
Almost no human contact; to my knowledge no driver through a food delivery service has delivered to me twice; tips are given before the service is provided
Many restaurants illegally pay their waitstaff tipped wages, regardless of whether tips will bring them to minimum wage
No minimum wage for independent contractors; they have discretion when to work and what contracts/orders to take; I feel no ethical or moral obligation
I will give good tips for good service and bad tips (or no tip!) for bad service
It was the opposite for me in 2015. The $4 delivery fee was paid out to me, in cash, whenever I returned after delivering an order to report the tip / pick up the next orders.
If the restaurant did taxes on any of that it would have to have been from my shifts in the kitchen.
Uber Eats tells us how much we are going to receive for the service, & when I see people like you, I don’t accept the delivery. Or I accept it and mock you via text before canceling.
I thought the SDMB was where one came to fight ignorance, not spread it. If you want to know how your Uber Eats fee is distributed, just ask me. They literally give us this detail for every drive:
I don’t know about the other services. I don’t do them.
Max you’re a smart guy. I’m really confused as to why you have a problem understanding why the pay rate (including tips) for a person who takes 25 minutes to deliver a single steak dinner, utilizing their own capital equipment, should differ and be higher than the pay rate for a person who can deliver 16 steak dinners to their four assigned four-tops in a restaurant in the same half-hour.
