Which would itself be a diminishment of our Constitutional rights. Remember a little thing called the Establishment Clause?
The attempt to force religion on students would clearly violate the Establishment Clause. However, I do not put a posting of the Ten Commandments on the same level as banning handguns and rifles.
But there were all kinds of looney Ideas flying around. The ones that I disliked the greatest were the gun control proposals. Not that I want the religious zealots to get their way either. I just have a very strong dislike for Clinton/Gore and especially dislike their gun control rhetoric. So that is the part that makes me the maddest.
If you ask me, morals and family structure play a bigger role in teen crime than guns.
Both are cases where Constitutionally protected things - on one case, the right to bear arms, and in the other, the right to be without religion - are being infringed upon.
What you are saying is that you happen to like guns, so when a politico uses a tragedy such as this to say guns are bad, you decry this as sensationalism designed to take away your Constitutional rights!
Whereas, you have no propblem with religion in the schools, and as such, when a politico uses a tragedy such as this to say that we need prayer in schools, you stand by silently. Maybe even agree with them. Um… You mean that’s in the Constitution too? But kids are dying…
We have a word for that kind of contradiction where I’m from. It’s called hypocrisy.
Yer pal,
Satan
http://www.raleighmusic.com/board/Images/devil.gif
I HAVE BEEN SMOKE-FREE FOR:
Two weeks, two days, 16 hours, 38 minutes and 47 seconds.
667 cigarettes not smoked, saving $83.47.
Life saved: 2 days, 7 hours, 35 minutes.
No, both are bad, but if you will look carefully I said that Clinton/Gore and the anti gun dudes are still holding meetings and press conferences while the ten commandments in the school crowd dropped it about 6 months ago.
That they were using this tragedy to grandstand religion was disgusting, but they have pretty much dropped the issue out here in Columbine land. Since they aren’t doing it anymore, I have a hard time remaining sick and tired of it.
Furthermore, not all constitutional issues are created equal. the courts make a distinction between allowing religious worship in schools and teaching religion in schools. Some gun laws can exist without violating the constitution. I was just being honest about what is getting on my nerves this month.
Lighten up, man. I have to triage the looneys that have jumped onto the bandwagon out here. I don’t have time to get annoyed with them all.
**
Bullshit. Just this past weekend as I was driving to see Drain bead, I listened to a religious program which talked of the year since Columbine, and the pastor of a church in Littleton was talking about how “we need God back in the schools.”
Right about now, the books are coming out en masse about this, and a whole new movement is taking form. Actually, just being reborn (yuk, yuk) because really, it never left.
Go over to the Left Behind board sometime and see how “dropped” the issue is.
**
Again, bullshit.
**
Right. Some you happen to personally agree with and others you do not.
This subjective application of this did not go unnoticed by me in your very first message, and you have done nothing to show me otherwise since, even when I gave you ample opportunity to understand exactly what you were saying.
**
Both are cases where groups are using a tragedy to further their own cause, both of which may or flat-out do go against predominating interpretations of the Constitution. Period.
**
And I was just being honest that hypocrisy gets on my nerves… Oh, all the fucking time, actually. I’ve got January to December of every year of “Not Digging Hypocrisy Month” on my calendar.
Right… Especially when you went on the record saying that you like guns and are a Christian. Especially when you went on the record that anti-gun laws are “horrible infringments of Constitutional rights,” while blatant disregard of the Separation of Church and State provisions in the same document “wouldn’t be so bad.”
Sorry, but I believe you just had your cake, are eating it, and to compound matters, refuse to let anyone else have any! Maybe we should call you Cartman from now on…
Yer pal,
Satan
http://www.raleighmusic.com/board/Images/devil.gif
I HAVE BEEN SMOKE-FREE FOR:
Two weeks, three days, 12 hours, 44 minutes and 11 seconds.
701 cigarettes not smoked, saving $87.65.
Life saved: 2 days, 10 hours, 25 minutes.
OK, Satan, an example from today’s news. THe state of Ohio’s slogan “with God, anything is possible” was deemed unconstitutional by the Supreme court because it was a quote from Jesus. Yet, “In God we trust” was deemed constitutional. Both involve God being invoked by the government. But the supreme legal body of the US recognizes that there are degrees involved and that the issues are not as black and white as you would have it.
If the movement were to make Bible study a requirement in the schools or to ban the teaching of evolution, I would be up in arms. But here in Colorado, the main debate has been to post the Ten Commandments. It will never happen, so I don’t give a big shit about it.
Would the ten Commandments in public school be unconstitutional? yes. Do I support the constitution? yes. I would be against religious teaching in the public school. If I want my kids to be exposed to that I will send them to parochial school.
Religious groups discussing the issue on their own radio stations does not bother me. Know why? becauise I don’t listen to them and they aren’t public officials.
Clinton is a public official who is getting on all of the public airways and on the cover of every local newspaper. His actions are more intrusive and more tiresome. And he has more power to carry out his war on the Constitution than a few christian flakes.
Neither a religious state nor a disarmed citizenry is acceptable to me. But I can certainly state that I think the latter is a greater threat and more likeley to occur than the former without being a hypocrite.
But if you feel the need to label me one…well that is your choice.
This thread turned into “what we are tired of”. I stated what I was tired of. I have a feeling that you are gunning for me because you are under the mistaken impression that I am a wild-eyed, gun totin, Christian nut bag who wants the KKK to rule the country and purge the heaten. Which is probably my fault for coming across so conservatively and too aggressively on certain issues. But I doubt I fit the image you have of me.
Let’s see here. Could there be a reason for this that you’re overlooking?
Ah, yes. A quick perusal of gun statistics will give you this information.
Notice how the countries that are close to our economic and political equals are closer to the bottom of the list, while we’re at the top. Notice, also, that those countries have some measure of gun control.
Would Columbine have happened if the 10 commandments were posted in the hallways and libraries? Yes, they probably would have. These kids were most likely mentally ill. Would Columbine have happened if the kids had to stab every victim? Most likely not. They would have been easily overpowered.
I’m not calling for gun banning here, lest you get me wrong. I’m just saying that the conservatives have given up on that idea (which, technically, they haven’t–seen the thread about Michigan lately?) because they realize it’s a worthless panacaea, while the liberals at least think that gun control measures might do a little bit more good than slapping a band-aid on an exit wound. That’s why they continue to hold meetings and press conferences.
Good point Drainbead. I would point out that the killers broke many laws in simply obtaining their weapons. They also used bombs, which I am pretty sure are illegal. And let’s not even mention that they had no problem with committing first degree murder. I doubt any law short of a complete removal of all privately owned weapons would have stopped these guys.
I have not yet heard on proposed “solution” that would have prevented these murders. Which is why it is all so annoying.
**
This does not show that people are NOT still using Columbine as evidence for things such as the 10 Comandments being posted, prayer in school, ad nauseum, which is what I called into question.
**
Well, since in Kansas, they made it where Biblical Creation is to be taught right alongside real science, then I wouldn’t be too confident that it couldn’t happen in the state where the emotions run most high about this for obvious reasons.
And really, if you can see that the right has not stopped using the tragedy to further their goals, and you do not dig them furthering thei goals (which is what you finally said above), then why is it that you have a problem pointing out both sides crap?
**
Ah, and only public officials can influence things? Well, it seems to me that a bunch of school board members in Kansas did more to hurt the Constitutional Separation of Church and State provisions than Bill Clinton with a Republican-majorityHouse and Senate could ever do to take away guns.
**
Well, I’m sure I could find lot of other elected officials who use the same language and use of Columbine to further their political goals as well, and if you think that GW Bush wouldn’t be doing exactly the same thing from the White House that Clinton is now, except about the Godd issue under the nebulous term “family values,” then I believe you are mistaken.
And if (whem) Bush (or any Republican) gets into the White House, and does this a year later, about God instead of guns, I do hope you will find it in your heart to be consistant about this and be just as upset at him as you are Clinton.
**
Bullshit. Both the NRA and the religious right have lobbying power way greater than those who would threaten their causes, and probably more than they deserve to have (but that’s another story).
**
Well, with what you say, it speaks volumes. I have no problems with you being conservative. I have no problem with you being pissed at the democrats for shouting “guns” after the whole mess. All I’m saying is you really should be consistant about this. I am trying to be.
After all, I posted here right after the last shooting that all it would be is two factions using another tragedy to further their political causes. And I never said I agreed or disagreed with the positions themselves - just that they were using tragedy to support it. That’s all.
Think about that for a while, and please do spare me the martyr act. I have nothing against you or your ideas. I’d just like you to see that if you are not consistant about things such as this, you lose credibility. That’s all.
Yer pal,
Satan
http://www.raleighmusic.com/board/Images/devil.gif
I HAVE BEEN SMOKE-FREE FOR:
Two weeks, three days, 16 hours, 13 minutes and 53 seconds.
707 cigarettes not smoked, saving $88.38.
Life saved: 2 days, 10 hours, 55 minutes.
If you were to keep all facts the same and replace Clinton with GWB and replace Gun rhetoric with God rhetoric and I would be outraged about that too.
As for which is a bigger threat…well, that is mere speculation and can be saved for a different debate. You and I feel differently…that’s all. Personally I don’t want either of us to be right.
**
I do not have to carefully measure out how much outrage I feel for various groups with whom I disagree so that it all comes out even. Some people piss me off more than others even if they are no more or less wrong. (The 4,000 shoes on the capitol steps REALLY pissed me off and I am still sore about it.)
It harms one’s credibility more not to admit to ones biases.
It’s a curious fact that all high profile school shootings in recent years have been done by middle class white kids from self proclaimed “Christian communities.”
Sure, post the Commandments, that’ll stop em!
Sorry for the lame sarcasm, but it seems like
bullshit to me.
Here in Albuquerque, there are something like 12 high schools.
Since Columbine, most all of the “threats” have been from the the predominately white “We are a Christian Community” schools.
I am glad my niece and nephew (both white) go to schools with a mostly Latino population.
Oops, sorry, wrong thread.
Out of curiosity, what is the predominant religion at the latino schools?
I would believe that the dominant religion in latino schools would be catholicism. I may be wrong, but the spainiards were catholic, and a lot of the churches I’ve seen there are catholic.
“I know you’ve come to kill me. Shoot, coward, you’re only going to kill a man.” -Che Guevara, Oct 9, 1967.
I know. I was baiting. the distinguishing factor was race or social status rather than religion.
See, the thing is, it’s not just those guys. We the highest gun death rates in the free world. School shootings are just a miniscule portion of that. While posting the ten commandments in the schools wouldn’t help school shootings, they also wouldn’t help any of the other ones. Gun control measures, both in laws that make guns harder to get unless you are competent and well-trained in using them and stricter enforcement of the existing laws, is at least an attempt to fix the problem, rather than a slapdash cure. Thinking that having the ten commandments up in schools will do ANYTHING to fix violence (whether it’s gun violence or the occasional fistfight) is like thinking that a little bit of Scotch tape will fix up a severed head.
This might deserve its own thread, but I have a question for those who are against gun control measures. Sure, it says in the Constitution that there is a right for a well-regulated militia to bear arms. I have no problem, at this point, with you claiming that applies to the average Joe. Now, the average Joe in say, Great Britain, is not allowed to own a firearm, and their gun death rates are much, much lower than ours (someone may want to look up their overall murder rates as well, because I’m not sure if they’re lower or not). So, do gun control opponents think that the added amounts of violence and murder brought on by guns in our country is the price we all have to pay for freedom? If so, would your mind change if your spouse, child, or parent were shot and killed?
Well, I would assume they are mostly Catholic, as are most Latinos in the state.
I can see where you are going on this.
I haven’t yet seen a shooting rampage in a Catholic school, if that’s what you mean.
I haven’t seen a rash of “I was picked on, nobody likes me” shootings in black or hispanic schools, either.( which admittedly, I don’t know why, because, after all, Christianity is a social disease.)
Just middle class white boys from religious backgrounds.
If you are asking why Catholic kids don’t shoot up schools as much as, say Presbyterian (whatever) kids do, I don’t know.
I am an atheist. I haven’t seen any good brought by religion since it started.
I just know it’s a fact that these young psychos are raised in religious homes, just ask their parents.
(Well, we don’t know why God let our poor boy stray from the flock," ad nauseum.)
These shootings have all taken place in towns that say they are very religious.
Then they say we need more religious doctrine in schools. Well, apparently the Christians aren’t doing a very good job of raising their kids then.
At the rate it’s going, I think we need to arm the teachers.
Drain, I agree that the 10 Comandments wouldn’t do much, if anything.
On the Gun issue, this has been discussed extensively and Ex Tank at one point debunked the statistics you cite.
You ask:
we pay a pricce for all of our freedoms. And yes, it is the price that we pay for our freedom. Russia had a hell of a lot less crime in Stalin’s day. I’ll take the violence for the freedom.
[quote}would your mind change if your spouse, child, or parent were shot and killed? [/quote]
Maybe, but my opinion based on my little life is not a good basis to create policy or trash the constitution. Everything is bad for someone. The Berlin wall may have fallen on someone’s foot, and they still think it was a bad thing.
Klaatu: My wife works at the Jail that Harris and Klebold would have gone to had they lived. Most of the kids who are there do not have much of a family, let alone a religious one. But I don’t think that any amount of proslytizing is going to fix all of the crappy parents and drug abuse out there.
Has anyone read Jon Katz’s “Stories from the Hellmouth” (I think) on www.slashdot.org ? Did you know that there are now, as a result of knee-jerk Columbine reactions, standards in place for students to call a hotline and report other students for what amounts to “being different”?
That’s all we need… a chance for the crowd-in-charge to report anyone who dares to be different from the normal high school sheep.
Your right there aren’t that many shoot ups in the Catholic schools but I also agree that the 10 commandments isn’t gonna do anything unless the people actually take them to heart and no one can force anyone to do that.
I used to go to a Catholic school and not too long after Columbine someone got up on a table in the cafeteria and told everyone they were gonna die. Believe me the teachers took this seriously and they would have even if Columbine hadn’t happened the week before. I don’t really know what it is but I find public schools are worse for the teasing and bullying and such but by no means is it confined just to public schools or Christian communities. I can think of several incidents off the top of my head that happened at the school I went to or had to do with the students there that just about caused problems.
The reasons they had for doing that I think are almost a cop out. You see I know what its like to be the odd kid out with no friends everyone teasing you. But the thought of killing them never crossed my mind. I think they must have had some serious problems mentally as well as with all the stuff in their lives to have to think that killing the others would prove they were great. You can be the best you and do some great thing and prove them that way. And then also you’d probably be laughing your ass to the bank.
As for that hot line I think its not too bad an idea but anyone who is different is gonna get turned in. That could be anyone from those who dress a little differently and/or keep to themselves all the time to the geeks and popular crowd. Its all perspective. Different is good its just if they have real worries about someone they should call. Cuz that person could just prefer to dress that way or be too shy to approach other people or something.
Bargain not with the Darkness: in time it will take us all.
Exerpted from The Book of Nod