Titanic tourist submarine missing 6-19-2023 (Debris field found, passengers presumed dead. 06-22-23)

I’ll bet someone on that sub boarded thinking, “I’ve got a bad feeling about this.” :grimacing:

I hope they’re rescued successfully.

What scenario might there be that would make the sub lose both its regular communications system and the ability to manually release ballast to resurface, all while the sub remains intact?

Ha! Clever.

Can you really effectively sign away all claims to damages in the relevant jurisdictions? Even if the cause is a criminal act such as involuntary manslaughter by negligent design and operation?

Yes. Carbon fiber composites are, well, carbon fiber (usually spun into thread then woven into fabric, but there are other methods) held together and stiffened with some sort of resin, epoxy, and/or plastic “goop” that is then cured and hardened. Loosely, “glue”.

They’re great stuff, but have different failure modes than things like wood or metals like steel or aluminum. A couple times I flew an airplane made almost entirely of composites that, among other things, had temperature sensors embedded in the winds and main spar - above a certain temperature the structure would become unsafe. Not a temperature frequently encountered where I live but theoretically possible if it was sitting on pavement on a hot summer day. Checking the surface and internal temperatures were part of the pre-flight.

Deep sea exploration is not my wheelhouse, but carbon composites are used in both surface and submarine items these days so presumably there is a body of knowledge around the use of carbon fiber in the ocean, from where it’s an advantage to where it’s an issue.

Non-destructive testing includes things like ultrasound and thermal imaging, but that’s the extent of my knowledge around such things.

IANAL, but I’ve been around enough to know that weasel-worded bullshit liability waivers have been around as long as long as liability suits themselves, and they are by no means always binding. Just about every car parking lot, for instance, would like you to believe that if they print on the ticket that you take for entry that they’re not responsible for anything, that they are in fact off the hook for anything that might happen to your vehicle. That is absolutely not true, as anyone offering any kind of service has a responsibility to exercise care and diligence to an extent that would reasonably be expected. In this case, the evidence seems to be mounting that OceanGate failed to exercise the kinds of attention to safety that could reasonably have been expected, such as allegedly ignoring safety concerns and blatantly thwarting safety inspections. Liability disclaimers generally work only in cases of accidents that could not reasonably have been foreseen or prevented, and explicitly not in cases of gross negligence.

And piloted by Mr. T.

The detection device is made from the same material that they use for the walls between motel rooms.

I just assumed the back end was some sort of fairing for streamlining purposes. The actual pressure vessel probably is rounded on both ends, but one end is covered in operation. But I’m no expert.

Yes, but it does leave the problem of rescue. They have, what, about 24 hours of air left as I type this? And it’s not certain the sounds are from the Titan.

Yep, basically tomorrow morning.

If they had known the sub’s position they wouldn’t have had a crapload of resources from at least two countries (US and Canada) engaging in search patterns. If they knew the location all the activity would have been centered over that spot.

It would drop ballast, making the whole of it lighter than water and it would rise like an (armored) air bubble. As it relies on physics to operate it would absolutely reliable as a system provided that 1) the “drop ballast” mechanism worked (Titan has multiply redundant systems for this) and 2) they’re not snagged/entangled by something on the bottom.

Interesting question.

In the US you can sue anyone for pretty much anything, regardless of what you (or a relative) signed. First obstacle is determining what court would have jurisdiction as this “oops” took place in international waters. But let’s say a US court is a legitimate venue. The trick is getting the court to side with you. If your deceased relative signed a stack of papers stating THIS PROPOSED TRIP IN AN EXPERIMENTAL SUB IS FULL OF POTENTIAL DANGER AND I ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THIS TRIP COULD RESULT IN SEVERE INJURY OR DEATH you’re going to have an uphill battle.

Some activities are inherently risky.

How many relatives of deceased climbers still lying atop Mount Everest have successfully sued expedition companies?

I would think that where the incident took place may not necessarily be relevant, with the courts being more interested in jurisdiction over the terms of the contracts and, much more important in this case, the jurisdiction in which negligence may have occurred, such as failing to follow prescribed safety practices.

It sounds like, even if they locate the craft, they have no means of rescuing it, as the submersible was last heard from close to the ocean bottom (3800m down), and there simply is no rescue equipment for those depths. Would that be correct?

Edited to add:
Oh, now I see that the US Navy has a "“deep ocean salvage system called Fadoss” (according to the Guardian).

“The Fadoss system is designed to provide ‘reliable deep ocean lifting capacity of up to 60,000lbs (27,200kg) for the recovery of large, bulky, and heavy sunken objects such as aircraft or small vessels’. The missing Titan submersible weighs 10,432kg (23,000lbs).”

So it’s possible in theory? but time is rapidly running out.

It looks a little like the reports of periodic “banging” noises on the half hour was somehow leaked, on the assumption Rolling Stone magazine isn’t ordinarily privy to internal DHS emails? I can think of a few reasons why they wouldn’t want to release this information in real time, none of them good for the crew.

A

The key word being salvage, not rescue.

I’m still amazed that there was no tether on the sub.

Has no one thought to contact Lois Lane?

I don’t doubt the US Navy has the ability to locate and retrieve an object the size of Titan at those depths. I do doubt that they can do it before the sub’s air supply runs out.

I think the families of those on the sub would still appreciate retrieval of bodies even if those lives can’t be saved.

On the other hand, I’d be very happy to have my doubts disproved. It just seems very unlikely at this point.

Just FTR, it’s hard to find pictures of that part of the vessel, but from pictures and diagrams I found, you’re correct. It has titanium hemispheres at both ends, with the circular window on the front one. At the rear, there is a bunch of machinery outside the rear hemisphere, and that is covered by a fairing. The actual pressure vessel is a symmetrical carbon fiber cylinder with titanium hemispheres at both ends.

Company was warned of serious dangers in 2018:

Dozens of industry insiders warned OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush in 2018 that he was walking a dangerous path by not undergoing a certification process for his submersibles designed to view the Titanic wreck site, according to a letter obtained by the New York Times and published on its website Tuesday evening.

Some of you upthread seem to think this is a good time to crack jokes. Do you not care about the image you’re projecting of yourselves and of the SDMB? No? What about the feelings of anyone who’s close to this developing story for any reason? :unamused:

Not to be morbid, but depending on how catastrophic the failure, retrieval of remains could be challenging. I read in a report about the loss of the Scorpion in 1968 that when the crew cabin ruptured the surge of entering water was moving at supersonic speed. Movies show us sailors running from rising interior floods because we can imagine that’s what it would be like, but apparently the physical behavior of water at that depth and pressure is totally at odds with our intuitive extrapolations from ordinary sea-level experience.

“By no means,” said Zarathustra. "You have made danger your vocation; there is nothing contemptible in that. Now you perish of your vocation: for that I will bury you with my own hands.”

We don’t actually know for certain that’s what is/was heard. I mean, maybe, but then we could also be in the “the first report is always wrong” stage.