If we know where it is, they’re dead, but if they’re alive, we don’t know where it is?
Titanic tourist submarine missing 6-19-2023 (Debris field found, passengers presumed dead. 06-22-23)
In most jurisdictions (U.S.) that I’m aware of, a waiver doesn’t work for gross negligence. Also, minors can’t sign a waiver (they can sign, but it’s not valid).
From the little I know, the waiver will be less of a problem than figuring out what went wrong so you can present a negligence theory. As defendants like to point out, sometimes accidents happen without negligence.
That would be Amistad, and yeah, that gave me the willies, too.
Double-click rule
There is no mention of the incident in the historical record of La Armistad. As a schooner it was transporting only 53 slaves but on larger ships it sometimes it was done to collect insurance on the “cargo.”
If the enslaved people died onshore, the Liverpool ship-owners would have had no redress from their insurers. Similarly, if they died a “natural death” (as the contemporary term put it) at sea, then insurance could not be claimed. If some enslaved people were thrown overboard to save the rest of the “cargo” or the ship, then a claim could be made under “general average”.[34] (This principle holds that a captain who jettisons part of his cargo to save the rest can claim for the loss from his insurers.) The ship’s insurance covered the loss of slaves at £30 per person.[35]
On 29 November, the crew assembled to consider the proposal that some of the enslaved people should be thrown overboard.[36] James Kelsall later claimed that he had disagreed with the plan at first but it was soon unanimously agreed.[35][36] On 29 November, 54 women and children were thrown through cabin windows into the sea.[37] On 1 December, 42 male slaves were thrown overboard and 36 more followed in the next few days.[37] Another 10, in a display of defiance at the inhumanity of the slavers, chose to commit suicide by jumping into the sea.[37] Having heard the shrieks of the victims as they were thrown into the water, one of the captives requested that the remaining Africans be denied all food and drink rather than being thrown into the sea; the crew ignored this request.[38] In total, 142 Africans were killed by the time the ship reached Jamaica. The account of the King’s Bench trial reports that one slave managed to climb back onto the ship after being thrown into the water.[39]
The crew claimed that the Africans had been jettisoned because the ship did not have enough water to keep them all alive for the rest of the voyage. This claim was later disputed, as the ship had 420 imp gal (1,900 L) of water left when it finally arrived in Jamaica on 22 December.
Either implosion or suffocation for me, thank you very much.
Gift link: Missing Titanic Sub Experienced ‘Catastrophic Implosion’: Live Updates - The New York Times
“Pieces of the missing Titan submersible were found on the ocean floor, about 1,600 feet from the bow of the Titanic, the Coast Guard said.”
Not a dedicated one, but if it is anything like my old NES controller it doubled with the “start”.
Well, RIP to the crew of the sub.
@puzzlegal and @DesertDog , A movie question here. I had another film with a similar scene that gave me nightmares that I watched on TV in the old country back in the 70’s. It looked that the movie was made in the 50s or 70s and it was black and white.
It was about a detective or Interpol guy searching for drug and people smugglers at sea, also in the 50s-60s . At the beginning of the movie, the officer and local police boats from an Asian nation closed on a suspected smuggler ship. The smuggler’s ship was close (or in?) to international waters and the captain decided to toss the cargo to get light and faster before the police got to him. So yeah, besides drug boxes, chained modern day slaves were tossed overboard. The ship the detective was in managed to get close to see a bit of the gruesome crime and to ID the captain, but in international waters the crew of the police boat (likely thanks to corruption) refused to board and arrest the ones that committed that crime. (No evidence left too)
Movie then had the detective later hunting that smuggler captain when he decided to take his smuggling act to America, no human trafficking this time but the detective got his mark.
Ring any bells?
They were quickly, in less than a second, turned into a goopy mess where there would be no separate bodies to look at. Probably already eaten by whatever crabs and deep sea creatures that are there.
There is no point in retrieving body parts that no longer exist.
Pretty sure that meant bits of the wreckage, which would be useful, if they can be recovered.
They have found the two ends of the pressure hull.
Perhaps it’s not a meaningful distinction but I think there’s a possibility that rather than a simple “crush” that goo-ifies everything, a hole might open and, as the submarine collapses, the contents are quickly and violently ejected through the opening. You might still have largely recognizable - if mutilated - parts coming out of the mess.
How would any recognizable body parts get ejected out of the hole, when there’s thousands of tons of water pouring through it?
Indeed. It’s an implosion, not an explosion.
If goo squirts out, it would be rebound or other type of post-implosion reaction.
The air+body part bubble that goes out the side has sufficient negative pressure that it negates some part of the positive pressure being exerted by the water that for the 1 millisecond that the whole thing is being evacuated, the explosive action is the dominant force.
Note: This is a theory, by a non-physicist who has watched a lot of Mythbusters, not a robust or evidence-based argument by anything like an expert. I’m very okay with it being shown to be wrong, by anyone more knowledgeable.
Never mind.
And here’s the text from what was in the Twitter video I linked
The first piece of debris recovered was the vessel’s nose cone, then a large debris field containing the front end bell of the pressure hull. “That was the first indication that there was a catastrophic event,” said Paul Hankins, supervisor of salvage for the US Navy. Search crews next found a smaller debris field with the other end of the pressure hull.
Consistent with my understanding. With gross negligence being a significantly higher bar. Also, with all the news about how suspect the sub was known to be, I’m wondering about assumtion of the risk. I believe the waiver would be more likely to be upheld as this was a voluntary, non-essential activity.
I’m wondering whether the life insurance companies will pay off.
Scott Manley explains that the depressurisation would have made a very very big bang:
https://twitter.com/DJSnM/status/1671921121493647361
The thing is that finding a debris field from a catastrophic implosion would then make me wonder why there was nobody that detected it on sonar. The collapse of a pressure vessel of that size would release energy equivalent to hundreds of kg of TNT. If someone caught it then they didn’t tell the ‘rescue’ teams.
I saw it claimed elsewhere that the air inside the cabin would have become hotter than the surface of the sun at the moment of implosion - albeit for an instant before the water rushed in.
“Presumed”? Understatement Level: British
Just like a tube of toothpaste.
From the BBC:
- All five passengers on board the Titan submersible have died, the US Coast Guard says
- Rear admiral Mauger confirmed that five parts of the vessel were found approximately 1600ft from the bow of the Titanic wreck
- The debris discovered was consistent with a “catastrophic implosion”, he tells a news conference
- The rear admiral says he cannot confirm whether the bodies can be recovered, saying it is an “incredibly unforgiving environment”