[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
Okay…anyone else on board with this? I was never told that the woman should initiate contact. Evah. I’d like to hear the general concensus on that.
[/QUOTE]
It’s not the sort of thing you’d have heard of unless you went through some sort of etiquette training, and maybe not then unless it was rather formal and old-fashioned. But yeah, it is one of the rules.
I don’t quite know what to make of this rant. Perhaps it would help, echidna, if you could include a personal photo.
Thanks,
threemae
Y’know, if this librarian thing isn’t working for you, perhaps you should look into becoming a professional dominatrix. The dominatrix librarian routine would absolutely kill with some clients. I hear sometimes you even get to shit on men–and they pay you really well for it!
I’m being serious here.
[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
Hey! I used to live in Schaumburg! (I think we may have discussed that before)
[/QUOTE]
Indeed we did, back in the thread about roadside death memorials if memory serves.
Maybe the handshake rule I was taught as a child is an anachronism, and I can see where it may hint at sexism. I would certainly never think that acceptable in those terms. I always thought of it as it IS a woman’s choice when and how a man would touch her, as a respect issue, nothing more.
I’m…too sexy for my house dress…too sexy for my house dress…I’m too sex-y.
Oooooh yeeeeeeeah
[QUOTE=Cluricaun]
Indeed we did, back in the thread about roadside death memorials if memory serves.
Maybe the handshake rule I was taught as a child is an anachronism, and I can see where it may hint at sexism. I would certainly never think that acceptable in those terms. I always thought of it as it IS a woman’s choice when and how a man would touch her, as a respect issue, nothing more.
[/QUOTE]
Your memory is like a steel trap!
I think business rules should put men and women on even ground. Socially…hmmm…some women might be intimidated by casual touch, but I’ve always looked at it as a standard, acceptable greeting.
But then again, I used to hitchhike.
Wow, outside of the handshaking thing, I didn’t see anything here that qualified her as a real bitch.
You know, attractive younger women probably tend to get touched a lot more often than they would like by men who are probably not just “friendly.” I worked in a country club restaurant for years and was amazed at the liberties the old boys would try to take at the expense f the ladies. it does not surprise me that the OP has gotten hip to some of this and is not happy about it.
As for the dodo guy, well, if he’s leaving flirty messages and all that on her answering machine but refuses to actually work up the balls to ask her out, it’s his loss. If she wants an assertive man, that’s what she wants. Perhaps she knows a little more about the way this guy treats women, or perhaps she’s a little off base. I must admit that her statement about the busses was a little offputting, but I am not nearly as put out by her statements as the rest of you guys.
Well, I don’t like being pawed either, but come on. The way to deal with inappropriate patrons is to tell them quietly to let go of you, or to step away from them in a discreet manner. No need for a big drama.
Can’t figure out the cleaning crew one, but bet it involves tampons or some such in the ladie’s room.
While I can sympathize with the distaste for male “admiration”, I don’t get the whole “I hate men to touch/look at me, why hasn’t Mr Shy Guy looked at me or touched me?” stuff. That makes no sense.
IMO, the OP is very young and this kind of shit happens to the young and attractive-especially from middle aged men who can be creepy as hell. I can remember dreading having to ask men for help etc, because I never knew which ones would feel compelled to remark on my appearance etc. That sounds vain, but I got some kind of wolf whistle, comment, gesture more than once a week. I had pt’s family members look me up and down say crap about how they want me to be their personal nurse etc. Ugh. It’s damned nasty and vaguely threatening.
Now that I am in my 40’s–it doesn’t happen at all–and thank you, God. So, OP-hang in there-it gets better. Then again, the sourpuss attitude may accelerate the process.
I don’t get the whole no handshaking thing. It’s a business environment. And even if it’s not, to refuse to shake hands is more rude than to extend a hand incorrectly. Do you wear white gloves, too?
[QUOTE=vibrotronica]
Y’know, if this librarian thing isn’t working for you, perhaps you should look into becoming a professional dominatrix. The dominatrix librarian routine would absolutely kill with some clients. I hear sometimes you even get to shit on men–and they pay you really well for it!
[/QUOTE]
That would certainly dovetail with the sentiment
as far as career choices go.
[QUOTE=crazyjoe]
Wow, outside of the handshaking thing, I didn’t see anything here that qualified her as a real bitch.
[/QUOTE]
You mean this is a person you wouldn’t mind meeting? Or even, dating :eek: ?
Although she does indeed need a good fuck, I hope she doesn’t pro-create.
When I shake hands with a woman, I tend to do it slightly differently than I would shaking hands with a man, especially in a business setting. Guys get the firm handshake - not enough to hurt, but enough for the shakee to know his hand has been shooked.
With women, I tend to shake the forward part of the hand: the fingers and a bit of the palm. Also, I (hard to explain without showing you) angle the hand slightly. I don’t know where the heck I’ve learned it, but it has never been refused, and never drawn me strange looks, evar.
I was put off by the non-handshaking bit, but then you won me over to your side with most of the rest of what you said. I’ve been in service jobs and I’ve been pawed over and all the rest of that and I’ve had more than enough of that, ever.
Miss Manners readers are aware that traditionally a lady initiates a handshake with a man. Also that you never, ever leave somebody with his hand sticking out and looking like a fool. Also that the rules of purely social behavior are different from the rules of professional behavior.
I really empathize with you, echidna, and I think you and I have a lot in common, but I should warn you that I’m a twice-divorced forty-year-old woman with no romantic prospects on the horizon. I don’t happen to want any, but you might.
Hey echidna, I’m sorry to see you get dumped on here, but you probably should have expected that given the content of your rant. I do empathize and sympathize with your dislike of people invading your space under the excuse of chumminess or by taking advantage of social/business constraints that make it rude to throw a few elbows when people get too close. I’m reminded of the Gary Larson cartoon of “Nature’s Warning Signs” - might be something to consider for you. 
(Hope you get that Far Side reference.)
Oh, and maybe you aren’t communicating clearly to those around you (e.g. boyfriend, mysterious falafel-guy, cow-orkers, customers), so they don’t know how you really feel - are you sunny to everybody but only vent under the anonymity of a message board? Maybe your message isn’t a clear “Don’t Touch” - just a thought.
[QUOTE=bluethree]
Miss Manners readers are aware that traditionally a lady initiates a handshake with a man.
[/QUOTE]
What year did she say this?
And was Miss Manners referring to professional conduct?
[QUOTE=Daithi Lacha]
When I shake hands with a woman, I tend to do it slightly differently than I would shaking hands with a man, especially in a business setting. Guys get the firm handshake - not enough to hurt, but enough for the shakee to know his hand has been shooked.
With women, I tend to shake the forward part of the hand: the fingers and a bit of the palm. Also, I (hard to explain without showing you) angle the hand slightly. I don’t know where the heck I’ve learned it, but it has never been refused, and never drawn me strange looks, evar.
[/QUOTE]
FWIW, I *hate * that handshake. I have no doubt that you’re well intentioned, but I find it condescending.
As for unwanted male attention, let’s differentiate amongst types, shall we? A guy yelling obscenities at you in a dark alley is threatening. A guy staring at your breasts in the library is not. Annoying, yes. Feel free to tell him so, as emphatically as you like. But threatening? No.
No one should have to touch anyone they don’t want to or accept any touch that they don’t want. If you don’t want to shake hands, say so, but don’t behave as though the person offering his hand is some kind of bastard for observing a social nicety. That’s pathological.
[QUOTE=echidna]
To my boss. Hey, when I write you a heart-wrenching long email about a personal problem I am experiencing with our contract cleaning company.
[/quote]
When I write to my boss about business problems (which it would never occur to me to describe as “personal problems”), my goal is to be concise and factual, not long and heart-wrenching. You may have better luck with your boss if you do likewise.
First you said you were working for a public library. Now you’re a “corporate slave” under the boot heel of the “Corporate Ruling Class”. It sounds like you’re a little unsure about the nature of your employer. This could be the source of some of your frustration at work.
I agree; the person who hired you is a loser.
[QUOTE=Daithi Lacha]
When I shake hands with a woman, I tend to do it slightly differently than I would shaking hands with a man, especially in a business setting. Guys get the firm handshake - not enough to hurt, but enough for the shakee to know his hand has been shooked.
With women, I tend to shake the forward part of the hand: the fingers and a bit of the palm. Also, I (hard to explain without showing you) angle the hand slightly. I don’t know where the heck I’ve learned it, but it has never been refused, and never drawn me strange looks, evar.
[/QUOTE]
My sister calls it “giving paw.” Women need to learn a good, firm, business shake. Not strong…just purposeful.
Hmmm. First paycheck. Anti-social behavior with tendancies towards extreme violence just bubbling below the surface. In a customer service position. In a Public library.
First, what HR Asshat figured she’d be a good fit for that job? Research, fine, but she has absolutely no people skills and making her work with the public is like sending a trainwreck in search of a school bus. And the DA is just going to luv her Judo-flipping some awkward nerdy kid who tripped while looking for cliff notes to ‘Ivanhoe’.
Second, is there any chance she even bothered to lower herself to read the ‘zero tolerance’ policy on workplace violence? If people are pawing her, she should be reporting it to HR, but the minute she makes throws a fist, she needs to hope her bail-bondsman is her next ‘bus’. (But maybe Joliet library will offer her better hours.)
Whoa chill out Condileeza. You determine the cleaning crew is not doing a good job.Ascribe it to those who dont share your far superior work ethic. See all your arguments as not only unassailable but correct and only stupidity of others is to blame.You have lines drawn,walls built and your locked and loaded. Take it easy,were not trying to cross your moat,but just trying to get by One day at a time.
[QUOTE=velvetjones]
Oh, the guy you are dating sounds like an asshole if he’s taking the side of men who are putting their hands on you. Kick him to the curb.
[/QUOTE]
Except given the sexual (or at least radical feminist) overtones she gave to shaking hands, I wonder if the situation is really as she describes it . . . perhaps her boyfriend is trying to explain that the man who tapped her on the shoulder and asked her to get out of the doorway wasn’t making sexual advances.
[QUOTE=Miller]
Well, now I’m confused. This rant was posted today, but according to this, Andrea Dworkin has been dead for over a year. What gives?
[/QUOTE]
Yeah, that’s how the whole hand-shaking bit came across to me . . .
[QUOTE=Cluricaun]
I don’t know if it qualifies as a phobia on the OP’s part, but it’s certainly poor manners for a man to extend his hand to a woman for a handshake. A gentleman knows that it’s a woman’s prerogative to initiate any physical contact, and that if a handshake is to be part of an exchange that the woman will offer hers first.
Any guy that acts offended by this is a crude boor.
[/QUOTE]
Oh, dear, did I fall back in time, or are you pretending that social norms from a hundred years ago can be reasonably expected to guide our conduct today?
I gotta congratulate the OP on overall viciousness, though. If I were straight, I’d be seriously turned on . . .
Incidentally, you didn’t make it clear what you wrote the email about to your boss, but if you are being sexually harassed by the janitors (which is my best guess), then he obviously needs to do something about it. If you’ve brought the issue to his attention and he hasn’t, he’s making himself and your workplace liable for permitting a hostile work environment, at least as I understand it. Mentioning that might get some resolution.
In general, though, there’s an odd sort of contradiction in echidna’s insistence upon extremely outdated courtship practices - the guy has to pursue the girl, and the girl is the one to be pursued - while spouting feminist rhetoric about men controlling society. Most feminist writers that I’m aware of encouraged women to feel free to be romantic aggressors. The idea that a woman’s proper place in a relationship is the pretty object to be acquired and protected by the man is a bit out-dated, I think. Have you read The Female Eunuch* by Germaine Greer? She has very interesting things to say about romance, and she makes an excellent case for women accepting and enjoying the privilege of being the pursuer. (She’s also, incidentally, a wonderful writer.)