To Hell with the House!

The BBQ Pit
41

First let me say, I feel for your situation. You seem to be the victim not so much of any particular law as much as the nature of law. For all the good laws do us, they do not and cannot take every particular transgression into account. The instrument in their crafting is a cleaver. When it gets down to one particular case, what is needed is a scalpel. There’s only so much wiggle room in any particular law, beyond which the law itself is subverted.

I have a question: you say you knew your wife was here illegally, yet you chose to marry her. Fine. But what if the law at the time made had made her a felon? If, when you proposed and she said “no”, at that point you knew she was a felon—would you still have married her?

42

Oh bullshit! You’re as giddy as a schoolgirl at the prospect of pain and suffering for not only illegal aliens but those that happen to be their spouses, children, or friends. Hell, you even have a bug up your ass against US citizens that aren’t even immigrants if they don’t conform to your own personal view of US culture. :rolleyes:

43

You are simply wrong. Mind-numbingly wrong. I know you would like my position to be what you say it is, so you can discount it and anything else I say, but your desire for such does not change the FACT of how I feel and the ACTUAL positions I hold. But since you can read minds so well, why don’t you just play out a spirited dialogue between you and I in your mind, and allow this thread to proceed in the tenor it has taken on?

44

More BS. You just have to read what you’ve written to see where your beliefs lie. You want his wife to be a felon. You want him to be one. You’ve stated as much in your anti-illegal immigration posts. You judge this man’s wife as a bad person for being illegal, and you see him as being similarly bad for choosing to marry this woman for being illegal alien. You thinly veil in this phrase: “you say you knew your wife was here illegally, yet you chose to marry her.”

You go off on tangent in one of your immigration threads against non-immigrant US Hispanics speaking Spanish because of some racist website’s misinterpertation of an old treaty.

45

Faruiza, I honestly believe this is the best, most well-reasoned response I’ve read which mirrors my own feelings exactly but says them much better than I could ever express.

I, too, live in SoCal. But as a recent transplant from NorCal (SF), and a transplant to there from WI, I was confused when I saw the bunches by the tens to hundreds of Latino men standing around on the corners of San Rafael and other towns. When I asked what they were doing, By S.O. said they were probably illegals looking for day work. Good Og - the sheer volume!

Now that I am in the LA area, I can see it even more. It’s incredible, and my tax dollars are paying for their services. Look, some may pay with a TAX ID#, but you can’t tell me all those day laborers are paying and reporting and filing tax returns. But are they going to hospitals or trying to get other services on my dime? You can put money on that.

I am not a racist. (And I really get pissed off when I feel like I have to make that assertation just to take part in this discussion. I should have no bearing.) I fully believe that anyone can make a better life here in the land of opportunity - which might be naively optimistic, but I also believe it has to be done legally. Can I stress the legal part again?

I also believe EVERY immigrant should have to learn English. It IS our country’s language - despite what the minoroity rates are or are projected to be. It is English. If I can’t communicate with you, I’m not going to hire you.

I even know something about trying to get a marriage visa - a couple of years ago - right after 9/11, I was involved with a man from the UK. We were trying to get married and so I know the paperwork involved. But if it’s worth it - YOU DO IT.

Just my opinion. YMMV.

Respectfully,

Inky
(Whose grandparents on both sides are first gener’s born here after their parents came through Ellis Island from Ireland.)

46

Not to nitpick, but I’ve never been to racist websites. Just historical ones, and school. And it is English. Thanks.

Inky

47

Wrong on just about every count. Surprising? No. Now if you insist on making the debate about me, you have two options: 1) hold it in your head, as I already suggested, or 2) start a Pit thread. I will respond to you there if you’d like. Not here, as it is a major hijack.

48

A couple of people have posted that they live in southern California as if that gives them special rights to have an opinion about the immigration issue. Just to counter what they have said so far, I lived in Los Angeles for nearly thirty years and I’m a big fan of the Mexican people and people of Mexican descent. I wouldn’t mind more of them moving in. I’d love for a lot more of them to move to where I live now, as a matter of fact. If that means changing the immigration laws, I’m fine with that.

49

I don’t see the problem here. We have a person who committed fraud to illegally enter the country, who committed fraud to obtain false papers, a native(?) US citizen who aids, abets and marries the criminal, then makes odiouis noises about the natural consequences of the chain of crimes?

Let’s try to imagine the utter stupidity involved here. Let’s replace the chain of fraud and other crimes the woman used to get and to stay here, and replace them with a single felony count. You might disagree, saying that the illegal entry bits are a civil matter, but the fraud/forgery/working here illegally certainly adds up to some sort of felony. If this woman were a car thief, or had embezzled $15,000, there wouldn’t be a dry eye in the house.

Let’s replay this, only make the “husband” Mexican and the “wife” an illegal alien working and residing illegally in Mexico. Say she’s from … French Guyana or something, any country south of Mexico. She’d be in a world of hurt, and he’d be in legal trouble.

What do we say to those who immigrate legally, who line up patiently, and pay the fees, and learn the English, and get legal sponsors, and bring in useful skills, and pass the tests, and respect the laws? Sucker? Spend five or more years playing by the rules? Sucker?

How precisely is it that the sheer proximity of Mexico warrants some sort of special dispensation? How is it that Fox and his corrupt, hypocritical friends lambast the “Draconian” US Immigration laws whilst the Mexican laws are much harsher, the opportunities for naturalisation much narrower than those in the US?

As for you, mister husband, if you love your wife so much, then try immigrating and living and working legally in Mexico as a non-citizen. Try to own land, try to naturalise fully. Really. Good luck with that.

Non-compliance with the law has consequences. The fact that you knew, in advance, and still married the criminal speaks less of the laws of the US and volumes about your judgment and character.

See, we can’t respect a nation whose laws aren’t reciprocally compatible to ours. Mexico (and Mexicans) have zero room to criticise the US when we have immigration and naturalisation laws that are lightyears ahead of theirs.

And we can’t respect the “desire” of a criminal to become “legal” and “work hard” and “play by the rules” when their very presence violates the premise of those desires.

We can’t, mister husband, be expected to warp the laws of a constitutional republic to cover the irretrievably stupid choices of its’ various and sundry citizens.

Next time, think throught those decisions before you make them.

50

Rowes point is more than vaguely related to the OP. What Rowe is saying is that Gustave should have considered his actions more carefully before he got married to an illegal. How is that not related to the OP?

51

That’s because your black hearted individual without an ounce of compassion who is filled not only with hatred but a ton of ignorance. No criminal laws have been violated at this time by this woman. She can simply be deported, not criminally charged.

52

Black-hearted? You know nothing of me. They guy is one hundred flavours of stupid, narcissistic and careless in his choices and conduct. And when the consequences arrive, well, it’s everyone else’s fault, and not his own.

Don’t let facts get in the way of a good argument, yes? Try, if you’re able, to address something in my post in a factual manner.

As for the ad hominem bit, I shan’t respond to it.

But is the gist of your legal argument that by advocating the enforcement of immigration laws that I’m being mean? Is that really the best that you can do?

Compassion has nothing to do with this.

And as long as we treat illegal immigration as something calling for nothing more than “catch and release”, why they’ll cheerfully keep coming back. The penalties for violating a law give the importance of said law. By not enforcing the immigration laws, we are inviting contempt.

And you cheerfully ignored the multiple crimes and fraud that she committed and that he abetted by continuing to live and work here.

I’ll respond to factual counterpoints, not to emotional broadsides from an intellectually incompetent poster.

53

Hey thanks! I just got back here and noticed that things were still going on, caught this and wanted to let you know that the compliment did not go unnoticed. :smiley:

Originally posted by bluethree:

It kind of does, only because when you’re embroiled in the daily machinations of life where it is impacted the most, you get a unique perspective. For the same reason that since I don’t live in France, I can’t really have a credibly informed opinion on their labor laws and the tension being created by them, now can I? Or, if you want to bring the analogy back to our own turf; since I don’t live in Washington State, I can’t really say that my love of rain would keep me from eventually getting tired of being wet all the time.

Other than that, I have no particular problem one way or the other with your position on wanting to change immigration law. Like I said, I have no problem with legal immigration. I don’t necessarily agree with open amnesty across the board forever and always, but I don’t have the lowdown on the perfect solution, either.

54

Really?

Is a misdemeanor not considered a criminal penalty? A fine and possible jail time seems pretty steep for having done nothing criminal.

55

Gustave ?

(with minor correction by me)

56

Thanks to all for the advice, and I realize that what I did was fool-hardy. But I guess loves makes fools of us all (or me, at least).

When we get the funds, we’ll try to get a better lawyer. And I might just confront her boss about the conditions of her employment, but she’s afraid that if I do, she’ll get fired. She needs her job to support our household, and we’re hoping all this politicking about immigration might make things better. She’s been here over five years, has always worked and payed taxes, and never has gone to a public hospital or public school (I taught her English).

She’s a live-in, because the Xanax-impaired mother of the children can’t deal with them, and the father likes the cheap help. A citizen would charge twice a much. I know that she has commited a misdemeanor by coming here, and if she has to pay a fine or go to jail, we’re willing to do that, if we can stay together. Probably they’ll just deport her.

Our only other option–according to the cheap immigration lawyer-- is to go Mexico and get married there, and then apply for a K-Visa. Maybe Eva Luna has better knowledge.

57

No, I don’t think I would, even though her actions would have been no different. If running a red light were suddenly determined to be a felony, and you’re girlfriend had done so, would you have refrained from marrying her (supposing marriage was in the offing)?

It seems to me that this is a moral issue more than a legal one, though laws are laws and I intend to obey them. When I married her, it was perfectly legal. The question is, if the House law should pass (and I doubt it will), does that mean I have to kick my wife out of the apartment, refuse her any financial support, and should our baby have been born, refused him support too?

58

I know that you are black hearted son of bitch with a load of contempt for someone marrying someone who was guilty of a misdemeanor that is typically enforced by deportation.

Facts, like your falsehood about “multiple crimes and fraud.”

This is about a huge jump from current immigration law to a new draconian, cruel immigration law that would make past legal behaviours felonies. I think such a huge jump of not only making 12,000,000 illegal aliens but also all their families and friends felons by a stroke of a pen demonstrates a clear lack of compassion and desire to be cruel for cruelness sake.

Repeated illegal entry is a worse crime. I have no problem in prosecuting it either. BTW do seriously propose that we incarcerate all Mexicans and OTMs for long prison terms instead of deporting them?

Utter bullshit again. What multiple crimes and fraud other than a misdemeanor that isn’t enforced usually by anything other than deportation (including voluntary deportation in some cases)?

Whatever

59

“misdemeanor” should read* civil infraction* :smack:

60

It doubt I would. My question was simply trying to seperate two issues that seem to be wound together in your situation. One is the fact that you knowingly married someone who did not, and possibly may not, have the right to live here. You weighed the degree of difficulty and made a decision. One that I’d probably make myself.

The other issue is the degree to which you got kinda screwed yourself after the fact. You agreed to marry your wife, even with the “difficulties” you knew might be in store for you. But now the law might change and fuck your equation up completely. I do feel for you, as I do not see how you could have foreseen that things would escalate to where they threaten now.

While I do see the practical benefits of making illegal immigrants themselves felons and support sending illegals back and securing the borders and going after employers, etc., I do not think that doing so means that there aren’t ways to craft laws to take extraordinary situations like yours into account. For instance, even IF it turns out your wife becomes a felon if this law is passed, I do not think that automatically means that you would become a felon for living with her. I would guess there are currently thousands of felons living with wives and mothers, and as these felons are caught, we don’t expect these family members to be arrested as well. I am not a lawyer, but we could craft the law to be anything that we want. And enforce it the way we want, just as we haven’t enforced our immigration laws all these years.

That said, I hope you find a way through your particular situation. And thanks for the honest answer to my question.