See, Priceguy, its not so much what it says, but what shadows are permitted, what remains undefined. Where are the safeguards? Where is the oversight?
They told us the military authorization would be used to promote peace, by negotiation. They were lying. They told us we were under immediate threat, they were lying. The list goes on and on.
Do you trust them?
Wow, you’re even doing what the OP talks about here!! It doesn’t matter what the directive does or does not say, because Bush is evil. Well, if he’s going to “seize control”, then what does he need a stinkin’ document for in the first place?
Good OP, Priceguy. I can’t for the life of me understand why people have to make shit up about Bush. Bush has done so much really awful stuff, that all we have to do is mine the real thing, and we can skewer the guy to death.
John, you evade the point as gracefully as a bullfighter performing the veronica. Yes, it matters what it says, but only if you trust them to play straight. Do you?
No, that isn’t the point. And that’s the point you keep missing. That thread was about what the directive said, not whether you trust Bush. If you want to open a thread titled: “Do You Trust Bush”, you should do that.
What’s rather funny is that if there was some sort of real emergency and there was no such directive in place there would be just as loud a hue and cry bout that as well.
How about this question, elucidator, what sort of directive/plan should be in place should such an emergency arise? Or do you not think this kind of contingency doesn’t need to be addressed until , you know, the brown stuff impacts the oscillating blades?
John:
And, once again, you appoint yourself to determine the boundaries of the thread, what is, and is not, included. Sez who?
No, I’m just going by what was in the OP.
Sigh. I can remember when Clinton was in office and people were screeching about the executive order he signed (that every President for the past umpteen years has signed), which in times of dire national emergency, gives the executive branch broad powers, turning the office of the President into that of a dictator’s in all but name only. Clinton didn’t invoke the order at any time during his Presidency, and neither did Shrub in the wake of 9/11 (when it would have been pretty easy). So pardon me if I don’t get my panties in a bunch over this. I serioulsy doubt that if Shrub and Dead Eye Dick were to attempt this, that they’d be above room temperature for very long.
And here’s the funny thing, elucidator. You’ve got a fellow lefty who is telling you you’re turning him off, and he’s unmotivated to join in the debate because of your rhetoric. And your response is… crank up the rhetoric!
So I guess I should say… go ahead and keep it up. You and I are often on opposite sides of the debate, so if you’re scaring away people on your side, tough shit for you. And of course, we won’t even get into the fact that if it’s turning off one of your fellow lefties, what is it doing to the righties, or those in the middle?
I will note, though, that you certainly weren’t the worst offender in that thread. I believe that honor goes to AskNott, who put out so much garbage that it basically tanked the whole thread.
And that is all I have to say on the subject. Feel free to have the last word.
Word!
Why take it by force if he can get people to give it to him? Jeez, didn’t you see the Star Wars prequels?
Whether this post is serious or not, I leave as an exercise to the reader.
Shodan Another Republican won’t top Bush. Bush is a bad seed. I would prefer his Father as President to him. His Father has two things that his son lacks.
His Father left Saddam Hussein in power for a reason. This jackass wants chaos from Islamabad to Riyadh.
It isn’t at all just about hating Republicans.
Look, fact is, the first Dictator of the United States will not be a desperately unpopular second-rate schlub who’s out of his depth and grasping at straws to try to stay relevant.
The first Dictator of the United States will be a broadly popular man, and when he seizes control the citizens will applaud that someone is finally taking the steps they regard as neccesary, but the previous democratic government was unable to solve.
The first Dictator will not take power by stealth, he won’t be granted power by some secret document. The essence of Dictatorship is not that there’s a document written down somewhere that gives the dictator supreme power, but rather that the law as written means nothing and the dictator’s orders mean everything.
George Bush can’t seize dictatorial power because of this document. Suppose an emergency does arise. In the example of a small emergency, like, say, another Katrina, is he going to invoke the document and turn America into a police state? No, of course not. Do you think mere existance of a document written by George Bush giving George Bush dictatorial powers will make the American people shrug their shoulders and say what are you gonna do, the man’s dictator now?
And given the example of a really big emergency, like nuclear bombs exploding in major cities, the existance of that piece of paper will be pretty irrelevant anyway. If Bush survived, what remains of our military will follow his orders, not because he had a piece of paper declaring him the dictator, but because he was the president and someone has to give orders.
It has nothing to do with “trust”. George Bush is clearly untrustworthy. Even more than most politicians, I mean. It’s not because I trust George Bush that I’m confident he will never be dictator of the United States.
Oh yeah? Well, how would you like it if Nazis murdered your family?
And you forget about the man behind the curtain, Dick Cheney. He wants you to think that Bush is s schlub. It’s all part of his evil plan!!
Hell, at this point, I’d take zombi Nixon over Shrub & Co.! Nixon may have been a crooked sumbitch, but at least he wasn’t a stupid, crooked sumbitch like Shrub is.
Way to miss the point. Again. It has nothing to do with whether or not you trust the administration. I never, ever said that it is wrong to mistrust the President. To be quite honest, I do not like government. I do not trust government. I personally mistrust government as a matter of principle. This administration lies. So did the one before it, and the one before it, and the one before it. Politicians lie, and their agendas are much more about political gain than what is good for the country. I am very very cynical when it comes to government, and this administration is no exception. But the point is not that I trust the president not to exceed his authority, it’s that I recognize that this specific declaration has no power to help him do so.
My point is that if you want to convince the jury that this president is not to be trusted, I wouldn’t cite this declaration as your key piece of evidence, because you will be laughed out of court.
Please allow me to apologize for a thing or two, and to explain some difficulty I’m having. My first post in that thread pushed a lot of people’s buttons, and I didn’t mean to do that. I’m sorry. A poster previous to me, perhaps trying to calm everybody down, asked (I’m paraphrasing,) “Has the president become a dictator? Is the US a theocracy?” …and some more I can’t remember. I didn’t go back to fetch the actual quote, and I’ll explain that in a minute. I was responding to that, but I started my post by talking about the directive.
Some people gave me a serious growfing, and it’s really too late to dispute any of that. If you said I was lying or making stuff up, go ahead and believe that. I can’t find the material I need at this time. And here’s why…
In March and April, I had cataract surgery. I got bifocal implants in both eyes, and my recovery is not going as smoothly as I had hoped. Reading is a real struggle these days. Sometimes, I can’t read at all. Even when I could see, Googling was not my strong suit. I spent 45 minutes today looking for the AF Academy line I quoted. I’m sure it’s out there, but I just can’t find it. I’m sorry. Maybe I shouldn’t be embarrassed over my lousy vision, but I am.
I just wanted to say…good OP.
-XT
It would take a great amount of space, energy, and dedication to list and detail the many outlandish actions and views of the Bush administration. We shouldn’t have time to make shit up.
I usually don’t quote a whole post just to comment on it, but an exceptional post deserves an exception. Your point is compelling. You’ve stated it with an almost brutal clarity. And it shows enormous insight into the machinations of politics. Georg Hegel would have needed three volumes to say what you did, and nobody would have understood what he was talking about.