Honestly, though, what’s his beard got to do with it? Hirsutist!
Mindfield, I’m still trying to figure out on what basis you say “he appeared to be the imam of his mosque.” Whether he is or not doesn’t change the reprehensibility of the Bag-Man, of course, but you appear to be making some assumptions here that are now being repeated in this thread as if they were fact.
What good does confronting this jackass do? I’ve spent nearly half my life reacting, sometimes violently, to racism and it hasn’t done jack. If I work with someone who says something racist I now just say calmly I don’t agree with them and try to work on them in a more subtle ways to be less racist. If it’s a stranger, screw them. I’m not going to do anyone good by confronting them unless I consider unnecessarily escalating the situation without any hope of a positive outcome good. I guess I’m a pragmatist that doesn’t need to feel self-righteous anymore.
Hey, a well-cultivated beard can work well on many people. Like going bald however, it’s the kind of thing that really only suits certain individuals. If you don’t have the head for baldness then you’re just going to look like you just came from a chemo session. Likewise, if your facial hair looks like a topographical map of the Florida Keys, maybe you should reconsider your desire for that bit of biker panache.
To be honest I don’t actually know that – as admitted earlier I’m rather ignorant on things Muslim except for what I’ve personally experienced or witnessed which, on the whole, doesn’t amount to a whole lot. Still, he looked rather like the one time I did see an actual Imam, though I couldn’t say for sure what it is that distinguished him from any other muslim from the same mosque. Maybe it was the white hat.
(That probably sounded very ignorant of me, though I didn’t mean it to; I just genuinely don’t know for certain)
Just a few irritating nitpicky observations:[ul][]He might not have been Indian - probably Pakistani or Bangladeshi.[]The skullcap doesn’t necessarily mean he’s an imam - Jimmy, the Pakistani dude who lives over the road from me, wears one and he’s an auto mechanic.[*]I’ve never seen a woman wearing a hijab and a sari (usually worn by Sikhs and Hindus) - she was probably a salwar kameez.[/ul]
Quotes from the translation of the Koran:
2: 98
Whoever is an enemy of Allah and of His angels and of His messengers and of Gabriel and of Michael, let him know that Allah is a formidable enemy of those who disbelieve!
2 : 191
Slay them wherever you find them, and drive them out from wherever they drove you out, for feud and persecution is worse than bloodshed. But attack them not in the vicinity of the Hallowed Mosque unless they attack you first; however, if they attack you there, then slay them! This is the only appropriate requital for those who disbelieve!
3 : 85
And whoever seeks to pursue a religion other than Islam, it will not be accepted from him, and he will be of the forfeited in the Hereafter.
5 : 51
O those of you who believe! Take not the Jews or the Christians as your friends, for they are friends of each other. And whoever among you takes them for friends will be deemed one with them. Verily Allah guides not the iniquitous.
9:5.
Then, when the auspicious months have passed away, slay the idolaters wherever you find them and take them captive and ravage them and lie in ambush for them. But if they repent and establish worship and give to the deserving their due, then get out of their way. Verily Allah is Magnanimous and Merciful!
Better awareness now??
wisernow, almost all religious books contain similar violent bullshittery. If I could be bothered I could dredge up similar crap from the Bible. Your tactic is tired, old, and ineffectual. Give it a rest will you?
My thoughts exactly.
For the length of time he was in the lift with this idiot, do you guys honestly think he would have been able to help the idiot see the error of his ways?
No, the idiot would just have chalked him up as ‘someone who disagrees with me but I don’t give a shit about him so I’m just gonna continue acting the only way I know how’
"Do not judge others, and God will not judge you; do not condemn others, and God will not condemn you; forgive others, and God will forgive you. Give to others, and God will give to you. Indee, you will receive a full measure, a generous helping, poured into your hands–all that you can hold. The measure you use for others is the one that God will use for you.
Why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eyes, but pay no attention to the log in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Please, brother, let me take that speck out of your eye,’ yet cannot even see the log in your own eye? You hypocrite! First take the log out of your own eye, and then you will be able to see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye."
–Luke, chapter 6, verses 37-38 and 41-42
Do you really want to play that game?
From the bible;various acts of violence and commandments to commit genocide as well as other things.
My angel will go before you and bring you to the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites, and Jebusites; and I will wipe them out. (Exodus 23:23 NAB)
Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood. (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB)
“This is what the Lord of hosts has to say: ‘I will punish what Amalek did to Israel when he barred his way as he was coming up from Egypt. Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses.’” (1 Samuel 15:2-3 NAB)
“Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, “Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple.” So they began by killing the seventy leaders. “Defile the Temple!” the LORD commanded. “Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!” So they went throughout the city and did as they were told.” (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)
“The people of Samaria must bear the consequences of their guilt because they rebelled against their God. They will be killed by an invading army, their little ones dashed to death against the ground, their pregnant women ripped open by swords.” (Hosea 13:16 NLT)
Then Moses said, ‘Anyone who will not listen to that Prophet will be cut off from God’s people and utterly destroyed.’ (Acts 3:23 NLT)
Bravo on the best insults I’ve heard in some time. What a moronic clusterfuck that guy is.
I find it strange that people are jumping on Mindfield for not confronting the guy also. What would it accomplish? Do you think this guy would think “Yeah, I am a dirtbag racist! I need to repent!”. Of course he wouldn’t…and it could easily have turned violent.
If the racist had verbally or physically attacked the muslim gentleman further, yeah, then as a good person, its kind of essential to stand up. But in this situation? It would have only made a bad moment into an even worse moment. Calling Mindfield a coward is wrong and undeserved. He didn’t say he was freakin’ Batman.
There’s all sorts of violent macho bravado in just about any major religious text. The Quran holds no monopoly in that department and, as Antinor has pointed out, Christianity has plenty of its own. Nobody of any civilized mind takes any of that literally or seriously, particularly in light of the fact that these are ancient texts from vastly different, far less diplomatic times than we now live in. Even biblical literalists, zealots though they be, do not ascribe to such violent notions whatever the good book says. Moreover such passages do not constitute the larger message these texts are trying to convey. More numerous by far are the lessons of love, tollerance, forgiveness, humility, faith, sacrifice and charity along with stern prohibitions against various basic human rights violations. These lessons and edicts are the very soul of just about every religion.
Thankee, milady. I find that in certain situations the old stand-bys just don’t have the impact they once did, so you need to get a little creative for that bit of missing flavour. 
He didn’t even bring up the Bible or say that it didn’t have similar statements. 
No, but the implication was that the Quran advocated a lot of violence as though this was unique to Islam.
On the one hand, I understand why some on this board have been critical of **Mindfield’s ** inaction in the moment–it’s always good to stand up for what you believe is right, especially in the presence of that which is clearly evil. On the other hand, though, I understand why he didn’t, or felt that he couldn’t, at least not in the way that some have proposed. As has been pointed out, the offending dingleberry would nigh have changed his ways (or even realized that he needed to do so) had **Mindfield ** confronted him in that moment. And true, there could very well be the possibility of violence against, at the very least, himself, for **Mindfield ** to consider.
This would all be different, I think, if the dingleberry had, in a manner upon which there could not be thrown the shadow of doubt, engaged in more direct harrassment against the Muslims. It is then, I think, that **Mindfield ** would have some kind of obligation to speak up (or even become physically involved in order to prevent harm from befalling some innocent person) and let everyone present know where he stands.
There is another solution that he could’ve followed, I think–one that wouldn’t necessarily have brought him into direct confrontation with dingleberry. Upon hearing the insults that were directed towards the two innocent Muslims, he could have extended a hand to, or otherwise simply hailed, them. Y’know, something along the lines of “Good day, how are you? My name is such-and-such, and I don’t believe we’ve ever met before. Blah-blah-blah.”
This would have the effect of (a) letting dingleberry know, non-confrontationally and in no uncertain terms, that **Mindfield ** didn’t share his views, and (b) assuming that the Muslims had heard dingleberry’s verbal flatulence, letting them know that they were in the presence of at least one ally. Stuff like that goes a long way.
Anyway, just my $0.02.
I understand, Mindfield, 'cause I tend to be non-confrontational myself. I’m getting better at it (or worse, depending on your POV) as I get older–maybe I think that my advancing years will protect me from bullies hellbent on destruction and asshattery?–but yeah, I hear ya.
I agree that confronting the racist would not have been a good idea. however, why not take the time to strike up a genial conversation w/the object of the jerk’s derision, demonstrating that not everyone’s a racist asshole or willing to simply stand by and do nothing?
I don’t want to fight wisernow’s battles, but…
Bullshit. He didn’t say anything about it being unique to Islam. He posted some quotes from the Quran, and got the fuck out. He didn’t say anything about the Bible.
Maybe you guys know something about wisernow that I don’t?
Possibly; which is why you don’t make it into a finger-pointing accusation. Confrontation does not need to lead to escalation. The first thing that comes to mind (as in right this second) for me is to look at Captain asshole and say “No, no, he’s just a Muslim. I’m the Al-queda member!” And then laugh.
Not terribly funny, but it does the job … which is not to change his mind, but to let him know that his comments were heard and not seconded. If no comedy gems come to mind, the thing to do is just look the Indian guy in the face, smile, say “Hi, how are you” and make an effort to engage him in pleasant small talk. It lets everyone present know exactly who the asshole is. And this is not self-congratulation – there are times I’ve been chickenshit, too, and done nothing; but I make no excuse for that.
Things like racism feed on the idea that “you all think this too, I just have the guts to say it.” Silence in the face of racism is exactly the sort of “doing nothing” that Burke had in mind in the quote I appropriated. We don’t have an obligation to fight every evil in the world; IMHO we do have the obligation to fight it when it’s right in front of us at this very instant.
I don’t blame Mindfield if he/she just had a brainfreeze and couldn’t think of anything to say because he was so stunned or whatever; it happens. I certainly don’t think he was *condoning * anything, and certainly if the big guy was a known violent felon or was carrying a gun or something, that changes the equation.
But based on the facts in the OP, not saying or doing something is a moral failure. Moral failure caused by the (really rather slim) possibility of personal harm is cowardice. Going on the internet to talk about the bad, bad people out there, eschewing action or even self-criticism and seeking only the warm, wet blanket of mutual reassurance … well, actually, that describes about half of the threads in the SDMB, so I guess that’s ok.
Mindfield, I don’t know you from a hole in the wall, and I neither said nor implied that you were “less a human being.” I did say that your actions were “chickenshit” (as were mine in similar instances). I trust you can see the distinction.