The “it was true for me so it is true for everyone” is a fallacy. Iam sorry that you were pressured.
Jail is still not the answer. Education is.
So why do we let the illusion continue to infect new generations?
I readily concede that it’s quite likely to be “statutory rape”, but you seem to be operationally co-mingling a sex act between two highly willing participants described in the OP’s scenario, one of whom is underage (ie statutory rape), and a brutal, aggressive, violent rape (ie acquaintance rape) and indicate that they have equal potentialities for “damage to the victim”. I find this a rationally incomprehensible position.
You can set the age of consent at whatever level seems socially appropriate, but WRT the specific situation described in the OP, it sounds more like a horny, bratty 14 year old out for a good time than the physically or emotionally battered victim of a predator.
catsix Good question, wish I could answer it. It’s a problem this (U.S.) culture has, and it needs to be acknowledged and corrected. This must be done, before we can undo our starched collars and corsets, and stop with our “prim” societal veiw on sex.
CuriousCanuck BTW, I wasn’t saying that because it happened to me, that it MUST be true in every case. I was saying it is true in many cases, and to fail to realize this, and take action to help those for whom it IS true, is a mistake. Go back and read all of my post, and you will see this.
I agree with the posters who have said that they don’t see the 14 year old mentioned in the OP as mature. Something you don’t understand CC is that many (NOT all) 14 year old US kids are like this. For whatever reason, they AREN’T as mature as their European counterparts. The girl’s statements about starving herself to cause an abortion point that out starkly. I’ve heard of girls taking pills, and volunteering to be kicked, punched, or thrown down stairs to cause abortions too. Not “ALL” of them are like this, but there are quite a few who are.
There is a sickness in this culture, and it needs to be found and healed. Part of that is, indeed education, another part may be self esteem counseling to teach girls the truth about sexual relationships, and how to say no. Guys should get this too. Part of how to fix this problem also has to do with de-stigmatizing sex itself. I don’t think there are enough people in power right now, who see this, and who will start allowing for educational programs. Quite the opposite. 
If I may throw in my own two cents.
I was a teenage mother. My son was born was I was 17. His father ( who I am still married to 9 years later ) was 25. I knew what I was doing. I was having sex with him before I loved him. I knew he was not in love with me when we began having sex. So not all girls equate sex with love.
He was not the first person I had sex with. I was having sex at age 14 with older guys. I was never in the position where I felt like I had been manipulated into having sex with them. I was a willing participant. My parents did not know that I was having sex at 14. The found out when I came home one night and told them at age 15. My mom insisted I get on the pill. We talked, they knew that they could not stop me from having sex, they could only hope I made the right choices. Were they wrong in letting me date an older guy? Maybe. Could I have had sex with someone my own age and still got pregnant ? Sure.
Kids ( I agree 14 year olds are kids ) are going to have sex weather society wants them to or not.
If the kid snuck out of the house, chances are she knew that she wasn’t going to be getting a lollypop and a storybook read to her. You know the saying, it takes two to tango.
You do have a somewhat valid point, misstee. The girl mentioned in the OP however, IMO is not as mature as you were. (I’ve already admitted I wasn’t mature enough for sex.) I’d safely wager that you did not plan to starve yourself in order to miscarry a baby when you were pregnant. That is what the girl mentioned in the OP plans to do. With SERIOUS health repucussions on herself is she does, make sure you work to prevent this if she is, Craneop2. (By “prevent this” I mean the starvation.)
Because she blithely decided that this is the course of action she would take, I’d say she’s not mature enough to be sexually active yet. (At the very least, she should have the kind of birth control that she can’t “forget” to take, like the injections or the implants.) People who are mature enough to be sexually active are also mature enough to deal with things like pregnancy at the least. Disease of course, is a whole 'nother matter.
Misstee, much as I respect your opinion, I have to say, you were in the minority.
Yes, you’re right: kids are going to have sex. The best thing we could possibly do for them is make them as prepared as possible for the transition from adult to child. That, unfortunately, does not happen.
This country was founded by religious fundamentalists. Of all the “ethical” values that could have been passed down through some 350 years (hard work, community, self respect), the only one that seems to have stuck is that sex is bad. Which is just sad as all hell. Belief structures that are that ingrained are not changed in one generation. It’s going to take a long time.
But, the fact remains: this 21yo kid knew the law. Broke it anyway. Does it make it any less broken that his partner was willing? No. Is it up to the parents of the girl to decide whether or not to press charges? Yes. And, hopefully they’ll do something to help their daughter, instead of panicking and pushing her right back to him. But I wouldn’t bet that way.
CC, the point I was trying to make earlier is that a young boy/man having sex with an older girl/woman is vastly different from a young girl/woman having sex with an older boy/man. Catsix is right. As long as we perpetuate the myth, 14yo girls are going to continue seeing hearts and flowers, and think they are in love.
Er. Strike that. Reverse it. Thank you. :rolleyes:
No, I didn’t. I accepted responsibility for my actions. The doctor that I went to was my family doctor. His words to me were " I will not tell your parents, you have options. " My words to him were " I will tell them. "
I left the doctors office around 5:00pm and went to find my boyfriend - I told him and we went to my house to tell my parents together. My parents knew by 7:00 that night. I could have very easily hid the fact that I was pregnant for 6 months, but I could not justify not telling my parents.
My relationship with my parents was/is not the greatest in the world. However, they were always honest and up front with me about life. Nothing was sugar coated, and we ( my siblings and I ) were held accountable for our actions. I do plan on being very honest with my kids as they get older. I will talk to them about sex, and the responsibility that comes with it. I think all parents should. If a parent is too embarrassed to talk to their kid about sex, they should find someone who is comfortable with having the talks ( note I said talks, I don’t think you can mention it once let it go at that ) with that child.
I didn’t read anywhere from the OP about whether or not the guy knew she was 14. This, to me, is the crux of it all. So, what did he know? That’s a vital missing piece of the equation.
If she snuck around, made a point to look older than 14, lied about her age to him and kept up a charade about being older, then that’s definitely one thing. He’s foolish for getting sexually involved with her so soon, but he was duped. A good scare like this will teach him to be more diligent next time.
But if he knew, KNEW, that she was 14 and snuck around with her anyway, then throw the book at the bastard. At age 21, he should WAY know better. I don’t care how much she wanted to do it, or whether or not she instigated, if he hasn’t got enough self-control to resist her, then he is a million kinds of stupid and, if for no other reason, he deserves our deepest scorn. Temorarily removing him from the gene pool sounds appropriate. It’s a marvel that he’s got enough brain power walk upright and breathe at the same time. (If indeed he slept with her even after knowing that she’s only 14.) I would feel absolutely no sympathy for a 21 year old who knowingly snuck around and had sex with a 14-year-old. That’s just beyond stupid.
It’s hard to dispute the statistics from countries that have less restrictions, but more education on sex.
They have vastly lower rates of teen pregnancy than the US, and in addition they actually have HIGHER average ages for a first sexual encounter.
Presumably, many here would argue that humans in other countries naturally mature faster than here.
I think a more likely explanation is that teenagers are actually capable of being intelligent, responsible, and educated, but that we actively prevent them from reaching their potential by denying them education, taking away their responsibility and giving it to the government, and treating them like babies who can be told “No, because I said so”.
Particularly telling is the fact that many people in this thread have made fun of the girl’s lack of education, and indeed used that as a defense of their irrational notion that teens need to be babied, while at the same time being part of the system which denies them that very education. Circular logic at it’s worst.
If abortion were outlawed in the US, you would see many women coming up with abortion ideas equal in insanity to that of this girl. It is a sign of a failed system, not of innate stupidity of the female. As such, it is hardly an argument in favor of a “nanny state”. Quite the opposite.
I don’t know what should be done in this case, because I don’t know what the characters involved are really like (just as nobody in this thread knows all of them), but I would tend to side with the girl and her parents, as they are in the best position to know. Granted, blanket statements and generalizations are comforting, but allowing oneself to believe in them wholeheartedly is lazy and irresponsible.
Statutory rape is rape. The supposed ‘willingness’ of the underage party does not matter to the legal culpability of the predator. 21 year olds having sex with 14 year oldsis flat out bad for society. We therefore criminalize it. It is as much rape as havign sex with a comatose woman.
And you are mixing your terms - ‘acquaintance rape’ is not the ‘brutal, aggressive violent rape’ you refer to (this is not to deny the inherently violent nature of all rape, mind you). That crime you refer to is stranger, or simple rape. Acquaintance rape is the more correctly used term for date rape. Many people have argued (thank you Katie Roiphe) that acquaintance rape is less traumatic for the victim than stranger rape, in that it is less violent. The evidence I have seen (and I am looking at the bookshelf of 40 or so books on the topic that will be overdue from the library in the near future) suggests this is not the case. Rape by a stranger has different effects than rape by an acquaintance, but not necessarily greater effects. Sometimes, for example, the pschological damage of acquaintance rape has been seen to result in the woman later having consensual sex with the rapist, in an attempt to somehow gain control over the situation. The same thing just doesn’t happen with stranger rape. Victims of acquaintance rape commonly report a deeper sense of mistrust of the people they know, and also are more likely to blame themselves for the situation. Anyway, the effects between the two are different in quality, though not necessarily in degree.
As to statutory rape, I would assume the effects are more akin to acquaintance rape than stranger rape. But even if the girl thinks she was willing (in much the same way that many of the girls acquaintance raped on camps think they sent the wrong signals, that they contributed to their own assault) she may stil be deeply psychologically raumatized. She may well develope the attitude that she has to have sex with men for them to like her. There may be no effect at all, but the danger is certainly there.
Men are not ruled by their genetalia. Assuming this individual knew she was 14, it really doesn’t matter what she wanted. He could at any stage have said no. He could have refused to take part in a serious criminal offense. But he chose to have sex with a young girl. However much she teased him, or wanted it, it does not relieve him from the explicit legal and IMHO moral duty to refuse. We are not talking about a 19 year old sleeping with his 17 year old girlfriend here. I am fully in support of Romeo and Juliet statutes that deal with such cases (as long as they are extended to deal with homosexual couples, but that is another argument). We are talking about a 21 year old, adult in every way short of running for high office for which this country sets requirements, raping a girl who is only just a teenager. I’ll stand by the situation of there being a victim of a predator here.
Except, of course, that a comatose woman is literally unable to consent, while a 14 year old is only unable to consent in a fictional, legal sense of the word.
A comatose woman has no idea of what’s going on or whether she wants to be part of it; a 14 year old knows exactly what she’s doing and whether she wants to do it.
There’s a huge gulf between “thinks she was willing” and “thinks she contributed to her own assault”. And whether she’s willing isn’t some kind of mystery that she can only guess at; it’s something she can know for sure.
Well, boo-hoo. Guess what, it’s the same over here, And your objections about the physical dangers are the same, are they not. It’s time to dust off an old sig of mine:
George Bernhard Shaw, Caesar and Cleopatra, act II.
There must be a reason American teenage girls are ten times more prone to getting pregnant than their dutch counterparts. Apart from the hyperbole, I do agree with CuriousCanuck. And Maureen, sure it’s got something to do with education.
I’m not saying the boy did nothing wrong, and I’m not arguing that it’s all fine and dandy for a girl of 14 to have sex, with the possibility of pregnancy or abortion. However, considering the fairly high AoC in the US, and the high rate of teenage pregnancies, with the lack of education and the (sometimes) puritan look on sex, makes me think that it’s not quite as easy as getting your undies in a bunch and crying foul and rape at a horny boy and a girl a bit too young, who probabky thought the older guy was waaaay cooler than boys close to her own age - you know, suave, mature, wordly, able to buy booze, whatever.
If your society condemns this behaviour, it’s got nothing whatsoever to do with any natural laws. Many of the problems the girl would face in case of pregnancy are artificial and created by same society. If you don’t want these things to happen, then threatening with jail is not going to solve the problem, as is evident when looking at the statistics for teenage pregnancies.
I can see why one might think that. However, one must allow for these parts of pp’s post as well:
**It is your **[Craneop2’s] DUTY AS A CONCERNED ADULT to get her to tell SOMEONE who the hell he was, where he lives, when this happened ETC… YOU REALLY need to get that child to a doctor and have her checked for EVERYTHING. To HELL with what her mother says.
It seems that pp’s advising Craneop2 to make sure the incidents are reported despite the mother’s wishes. And this, according to pp, opens the mother, Craneop2’s sister, to criminal charges and the possibility of having her daughter taken from her.
Also note the use of the verb did(n’t) in this sentence as opposed to something like “if she does not”:
*In this state SHE can be arrested as an accessory after the fact because she didn’t * tell anyone AND her lovely daughter can be removed from the home and placed in foster care.
This is why I don’t think that it was advice to Craneop2 to blackmail his sister with threats of criminal charges and loss of her daughter. Of course, I think that blackmailing your sister is prob’ly harmful to the family dynamic, and thus should be carefully weighed against other options that may not be as damaging.
There’re lots of variables involved that we can’t know about. I’ve yet to see anything that’d lead me to believe that the mom doesn’t want the best for her daughter. Until such time, I’m going to suggest trusting the judgement of someone who has both more relevant information as well as greater emotional investment in the girl’s well-being- the girl’s own mother.
[Homer] Mmm…14 year old girls. [/Homer]
see ya convict
14 year old running after sex = “comatose” - Mmmmkay.
Please define specifically what “acquaintance/date rape” is in the context you are using the term, as you seem to be talking about something that does not involve overt physical coercion, and which the “victim” may engage in of her own volition at a later date.
If we’re going to expand the definition of “rape” out to the point that a woman who engages in non-physically coerced sex is “raped”, because her date was was persistent about wanting to have sex, and she was worried about telling her partner “No”, and regretted it later, we’re reaching levels of real world absurdity in the definition of what truly consitutes “rape”.
It’s sad to see that NAMGLA is alive and well with all of the of sick fucks on this board. Press charges against the low life SOB. The bastard needs his life ruined. :mad:
Only thing that you have to do is report the crime. The sheriff will look into it. At least maybe he could scare the shit out of the low life son of a bitch to where he won’t victimize anymore children.