Nonsense, it is simply a response as to what one would do with so many draftees other than going overseas somewhere. I think any rabid peacemonger couldn’t argue that working on WPA/CCC/ ‘candystriper’/clerical or teacher aid is about as peaceful and bunnyhuggy supportive as you can get. It literally benefits only this country and nobody else by filling positions that frequently cant be budgeted in or applicants found for at minimum wage.
<and I really challenge you to consider what my husband, family and friends went through in the military as anything over minimum wage given the sheer number of hours per week they ‘worked’ when they were in. Back in the late 80s they figured out that it was essentially just over $1US per hour and that was including the dependants medical care as what the navy claims was the equivalent of $5K US per year.>
Rabid military? Yups. I come from a military-traditional family who die so people who want to whinge about it have the freedom to whinge.
There’s already a system for getting people out of high school to serve a purpose fortheir country and get experience and all kinds of life lessons about discipline. It’s called getting a job.
Why ask the government to do what the private sector already does so well? It’s a ridiculous idea.
There really isn’t that much work that needs doing that can be done by untrained young adults with, at maximum, a secondary education. Not that isn’t already being done better and more efficiently by paid workers. Not enough to give jobs to every young person in the country.
So, it’ll be a silly makework program, and the conscripts will resent it because they know damn well that they could be making more money at McDonald’s, and that they’ll be putting their futures on hold so that they can dig holes and fill them again. All on the taxpayer’s dime.
Now, if you want to add a service component to high school, that might be worth talking about. There may be enough work to fill 10 hours a week for two school years or so. And then we wouldn’t have to house or feed them.
Yes, or something equally harsh, or few will go. That’s why it’s called mandatory.
Not if it’s imposed by the threat of force. That’s not peaceful at all.
No, they die for the profit of politicians and companies like Haliburton.
As for me, only a serious threat would make me join such a “national service program” ( slavery with a pretty name AFAIC ), and even then I’d consider it my duty to do as much harm as possible. If that means people get killed because the house I was forced to help build collapses, good. They deserve it for living in a house made by what amounts to slave labor.
And just like prison labor, one of it’s major effects will be even more downward pressure on wages. Which is no doubt a major reason some people support both ideas.
College deferral? Does that mean they go after college, or not at all? BEcause if its the latter, then doesn’t that just make it an obligation for the lower class (forgive me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t this an issue for exemptions from the Vietnam draft?)?
I can’t think of a war the U.S. has entered which, had we not fought it, would have led to the abandonment of free speech. Maybe one could argue the Revolutionary War with some quibbles, but…
Just putting in my two cents on how it works in Norway.
In Norway, all males are required to attend Session at the age of 17 to get a feel for the Army (Army here being the umbrella term for Army/Navy/Air/Civil) and to be able to give input for where they would prefer to serve. People with “serious conscientous objections” (i.e. pacifists and for religious reasons, mostly) are given deferments but are still elegible for civil service for a year. Civil service is usually public services such as nursing elderly at public health centres or kindergardens. The civil service period lasts for 18 months whereas the army service lasts for 12, but have other compensation/work-time deals.
Not attending the Session is punishable by law under the constitution and can result in a prison sentence if a valid reason is not given. I do not know if this has ever been carried through, though. Mostly you’ll just get MPs and a civil representative at your door if you don’t show up, to interview you.
Service starts after graduating High School, for those in attendance, or as soon as possible for those who do not attend.
Under Norwegian law it is mandatory for all males with the exception of conscientous objectors. Other deferments are also availible, like family-care, apprenticeships, scholarships, studies abroad and college/university studies.
We are progressing towards making it mandatory for both genders, it seems. This year, Session was made mandatory for all men and women born in 1989, but women do not have to actually serve if they do not want to.
Around 12 months, usually with dimitations after 10-11 months. Some studies (like “befal,” that is juniour- and training officers) are longer.
Full time work if you enter military service, with an alternative civil service for those who want to serve but in a civilian fashion, or those who are unwilling/unable to serve in a military fashion.
Mostly goes for the same here, but at age 18 is the letter of the law.
“Invitations” are sent out by birth year, not graduation year. If you are in four-year studies (like technical drawing) you are given a one-year deferment to complete that education. Situations are also considered individually if there are reasons to delay entry.
Many deferments are availible. I have yet to hear of anyone with a prospective professional carreer or higher education studies who hasn’t got a deferment if they asked for it.
A token sum. Most are paid around 121,- a day, amounting to around $21. The army takes care of most expenses, including significant rebates on travel, food and living costs during service. Most people do not have a chance to spend a lot of money while on service, though, so a lot of the money end up gathering dust during service.
Any officer with corporal rank (or above) are paid 135,- NOK, not 121,- NOK, per day. That amounts to around $24 per day. Other than that, only in special cases.
The Army does. They are very clear on the fact that they choose where they need you to serve, not you. However, you have the chance to give your input on where you would like to serve during session. Those requests are mostly granted, with exceptions for very popular/unpopular service places.
Refusal to attend Session or attend service without a valid reason is punishable under Norwegian constitutional law by (up to) prison time not to extend two years.
The Army decides. They prefer to move people about, 'cause of the logistics of erecting adequate training camps all over Norway and because local connections can be very distracting on the attendees.
To have an adult population who are;
[ul]
[li]Closely tied to the country[/li][li]Proficient with weaponry, tactics, geography and military command in case of a war scenario[/li][li]Trained to handle emergencies and shortages of many natures[/li][li]Adept at making well-organized and well-supplied resistance groups in case of occupations[/li][li]Instilled with physical fitness, loyalty, discipline and pride.[/li][/ul]
A military background looks very dashing on a CV. Completed military service with no marks pretty much means your future employers can have more faith in your capability as a disciplined, loyal part of their company.
Also, a year with living by yourself, constant team-work, physical, mental and hygienical maintainance and the chance to get a military education (in technics, mechanics, logistics, leadership etc. as well as a carreer-military education) is highly valued. People who have served in difficult services are well respected in Norway.
I should specify that only able-bodied and able-minded 18-year-olds are taken into service. Physical, mental and psychological conditions and defects are all valid reasons for deferment, as long as they’re documented by a doctor. There is also a physician who does a general health check-up at the Session, to measure your fitness for service (cardio capability, eyesight, hearing range, blood pressure, how good you look in camo gear, etc). It’s also very open to discuss any mental illnesses in your family or depressions that you have dealt with, or are dealing with.
Not necessarily saying that they should, just trying to extrapolate from your original hypothetical. But even at that, where would you have the federal government place those who were determined capable? I don’t see the Peace Corps going over very well, defense is right out, And as a father of a mentally retarded daughter, I’m not sure how comfortable I would be with any of the Americorps projects that I’m currently aware of.
In Norway, are you citizens, or subjects? There is a bit of a difference: unless it is strictly necessary for the survival of the nation, Americans are, in theory, free men. Subjects are those who have subjected themselves to the rule of the crown, and are, more or less, its property.
Universal conscription when the nation is not threatened and in war would complete the ongoing process from turning citizens into serfs, and civil servants into our masters, the new barons and earls.
Remember, once you’re in the army, they can keep calling you back for decades later. This should be covered in any new proposal.
The norwegian constitution refers to the populace as “innbyggere,” though I can’t find where it holds the definition of a “innbygger.” That pretty much equals to citizen or settlers and connotes people who belong to Norway. (As in, not tourists)
The Norwegian Army can call you back to training sessions and demand that you serve in a protective war capacity until into your forties. Late fifties for officers, IIRC.
I reckon that getting kids out of their home environment and mixing them up with other kids from different backgrounds is a pretty good idea. Especially if they are going to university.
The military know a lot about training people, and I don’t just mean combat training, so it makes some sense using them.
The Uni I went to used to assume that people would take a year off between school and university (nowadays I think that is less common) and in my case, like most of my contempories, I did numerous jobs including six months in Germany. It was quite pleasant knowing one had a place at Uni, yet have a break from studying and home.
I should point out that I think it would be good for most people, I also think making it necessary for all people is a horrible infringement of civil liberties. Just because it’s good for someone is no reason to make the government force people to do it.
Norway is a monarchy, technically, isn’t it? King Harold and all that.
I think there are a lot of benefits to National Service, but I feel it should apply to both sexes. We’re not living in the 1950s anymore, after all.
Having said that, any National Service programme should include a range of non-military options that would be available to anyone, not just conscientious objectors.
On the whole Citizen vs Subject: Australia is a Constitutional Monarchy, yet the certificate I have hanging on my wall quite clearly states that I am an Australian Citizen, not a subject of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, Her Heirs & Successors. That doesn’t change the fact QEII is still (fortunately) Head of State for Australia, though…
Ditto. I don’t like “mandatory” service, but I am all for things like that program that was started during the Clinton days (USA First?) where kids go into service before they go to college. I think it’s perfect for those who don’t know what they want to do as far as education goes.
Then stop using bridges - they may have been built by the Army Corps of Engineers. Move away from that flood plane - those levees and dams were very likely built and possibly maintained by the army corps of engineers.
Oh, and when there is a major catastrophy like tornado, hurricane, earthquake or major fire, don’t look for any help - the national and state guard units, the navy seebees and the army corps of engineers tend to respond to help.
Just give it up. Be very glad that others weren’t like you - The WPA provided serious amounts of work and income in a time when jobs were difficult to get. They had a hand in a majority of any public building project between 35 and 42. The majority of the projects that benefitted this country’s infrastructure came from the WPA. It also had a strong arts program, many famous public murals were a result of the WPA.
The CCC was used to create most of the recreational parks and facilities that you probably benefitted from when growing up. It also provided much needed work for the young men of America when times were tough.
Go off and wank in a room by yourself. Any time you leave your home you are dealing with the results of that slave labor you are so dismissive of.