To what extent is the welfare state promulgated by Democrats in exchange for votes?

[tagos]

@iiandyiiii

I’d say that crude class warfare politicking is a pretty darn good reason

Depends on your side and extent of your vision but from my side being asked to sacrifice welfare and accept lowering wages to pay for corporate bailouts, handouts, obscene salaries and pay-offs for failure, tax breaks for the rich and mass tax avoidance by companies and individuals calls into question the legitimacy of the regimes we live under.

[Smeghead]

@AlienVessels

It’s always about doling out goodies from the trough. Neither party has cornered the market. Society is about pooling resources.

In the US over the last 30 years, the pooling has tended to be almost entirely at the deep end.

Yup. The Republican strategy is to give money to the rich; the Democrat strategy is to give money to the poor. AND THERE IS NOT A SINGLE EXCEPTION TO MY BRUSH STROKES!

No one cares about giving money to scientists.

Not that I’m bitter.

[madmonk28]

Well, the majority of food stamp recipients live in the suburbs, which split evenly down the middle between the two parties; also, a lot of the farm bill is essentially welfare for farmers; and lastly, red state residents take in more federal dollars than they contribute. So, to the OP’s question, I’m going to answer: no.

[septimus]

So the GOP gives money to smart rich people and they vote GOP. The Democrats give money to stupid poor people and they vote GOP. All in all, the partisan best play is to give money to smart people …

@Smeghead

No one cares about giving money to scientists.

… unless they’re smart enough to ignore such bribery when they vote. Screw the very smart.

[Procrustus]

Originally Posted by IceQube View Post
They aren’t Democrat because of welfare?

Nope. I’ve never voted for a Republican presidential candidate (nor Congressional either as far as I can recall). I’ve also never received welfare in any form (not even student loans or grants), and pay more than my fair share of taxes. I would assert that people generally vote for Democrats (or Republicans I suppose) because they think that’s the best choice for their country.

[Marley23]

@IceQube

Did the welfare state polarize American politics among racial lines and secure numerous votes for the Democratic Party?

I would think the reaction to the welfare state was a lot more racially polarized than the creation of the welfare state itself. Saying these programs are offered “in exchange for votes” is intended to make it sound like a bribe. Democrats support these programs because their constituents support them.

[BigAppleBucky]

@IceQube

Food stamps, since neither Republicans nor Democrats are willing to change much with Medicare or SS.

How many?

Among the 254 counties where food stamp recipients doubled between 2007 and 2011, Republican Mitt Romney won 213 of them in last year’s presidential election, according to U.S. Department of Agriculture data compiled by Bloomberg.Kentucky’s Owsley County, which backed Romney with 81 percent of its vote, has the largest proportion of food stamp recipients among those that he carried.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-08-14/food-stamp-cut-backed-by-republicans-with-voters-on-rolls.html

Someday maybe those folks will wise up and vote for the Democrats.

Maybe not.

[Human_Action]

@Johnny_L.A

Red states take more government money than blue states.

Mississippi, Louisiana, Virginia, West Virginia, North Dakota, South Dakota, Alabama, and Kentucky are all in the top ten states that take more from the federal government than they contribute. All of these states are ‘red states’. All of these states spend a good portion of that money on ‘anti-poverty’ programs.
ISTM that the ‘welfare state’ benefits Republicans.

Here’s one problem with that analysis (numbers rounded to near whole number, for 2012 election):

Mississippi: 44% voted for Obama
Louisiana: 41% voted for Obama
Virginia: (Not a red state): 51% voted for Obama
West Virginia: 36% voted for Obama
North Dakota: 39% voted for Obama
South Dakota: 40% voted for Obama
Alabama: 38% voted for Obama
Kentucky: 38% voted for Obama

How do you know that the federal benefits, most of which are individual payments like Social Security, food stamps, and Medicare, are distributed proportionately amongst the state’s voters? It could well be the case that more money is paid to, say, Kentucky Democrats than Kentucky Republicans, even though the latter outnumber the former, because the parties have different demographics. I’m not asserting that that is the case, but without that information, it can’t be said that Republicans benefit more than Democrats or vice versa.

[BrainGlutton]

N.B.: To say the Dems promulgate a welfare state in exchange for votes is not to say they do it in exchange for the votes of welfare recipients; they don’t vote much, but there are other voters who care.

[Ibn_Warraq]

@Human_Action

Here’s one problem with that analysis (numbers rounded to near whole number, for 2012 election):

Mississippi: 44% voted for Obama
Louisiana: 41% voted for Obama
Virginia: (Not a red state): 51% voted for Obama
West Virginia: 36% voted for Obama
North Dakota: 39% voted for Obama
South Dakota: 40% voted for Obama
Alabama: 38% voted for Obama
Kentucky: 38% voted for Obama

How do you know that the federal benefits, most of which are individual payments like Social Security, food stamps, and Medicare, are distributed proportionately amongst the state’s voters? It could well be the case that more money is paid to, say, Kentucky Democrats than Kentucky Republicans, even though the latter outnumber the former, because the parties have different demographics. I’m not asserting that that is the case, but without that information, it can’t be said that Republicans benefit more than Democrats or vice versa.

More to the point, how many people on food stamps etc. vote?

Only about 50% of all people do and people on food stamps are probably much less likely than most.

[Mr.Miskatonic]

Ah! The old ‘three generations of white people on welfare complaining that the trouble with this country is that there are black people on welfare.’ Always a winner!

[njtt]

America has a welfare state? Who knew?

[Human_Action]

@Ibn_Warraq

More to the point, how many people on food stamps etc. vote?

Only about 50% of all people do and people on food stamps are probably much less likely than most.

Quite possibly they are less likely to vote.

Note, however, that the Slate article includes: Payments to Indian reservations, military spending, federal research labs, farm subsidies, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, food stamps, civil service pensions, nutrition and anti-poverty aid, infrastructure projects, disaster relief, veterans benefits, and NASA spending.

With such a broad tent of benefits, who’s to say that Republicans are getting more than Democrats, based only on which party had a small edge in that state in the last Presidential election?

[Voyager]

@Human_Action

Quite possibly they are less likely to vote.

Note, however, that the Slate article includes: Payments to Indian reservations, military spending, federal research labs, farm subsidies, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, food stamps, civil service pensions, nutrition and anti-poverty aid, infrastructure projects, disaster relief, veterans benefits, and NASA spending.

With such a broad tent of benefits, who’s to say that Republicans are getting more than Democrats, based only on which party had a small edge in that state in the last Presidential election?

But money going into a region benefits more than just the people directly receiving it. Food stamp money benefits the grocer also.

[Voyager]

People in the military vote Republican. Is Republican support of big defense budgets solely to get their votes, or could other factors be at play?

Democrats think people should not go hungry, and support programs like food stamps. Republicans oppose them. Is it odd that those who now have food tend to support those who helped them, not those who would just as soon let them starve, and call them moochers?

[DrDeth]

@Ibn_Warraq

Actually, I’m pretty sure most poor white “trailer trash” types either don’t vote(most) or vote democratic.

Lower-middle class or working-class whites, well that’s a different story.

There’s a tendency amongst a lot of people too have these stereotypes about poor people stupidly voting against their own interests, but most still vote democratic.

It’s the middle class and the upper class republicans do better amongst.

No, not the middle class. It’s the rich, and the ignorant poor whites living in the South. Look at a map of the red states someday. Most millionaires and upper middle class live in Blue states.

[Human_Action]

@Voyager

But money going into a region benefits more than just the people directly receiving it. Food stamp money benefits the grocer also.

Also true.

My points are:

1. No state is 100% Republican or Democratic or even close to it, especially considering the tremendous support “Who gives a shit? I ain’t voting” gets every election.

2. Federal spending is a many-splendored thing, there not much commonality between operating a military base, buying a new fighter/bomber for the Air Force, issuing food stamps, and paying a retired civil servant his pension, other than they all draw on the Treasury. No moral narrative can be wrung from total spending.

3. If there’s been a coherent effort to track the political affiliation of recipients of federal spending, I haven’t seen it. A blue state might have a disproportionate share of federal money going to its elderly Republicans through Social Security, and a red state might have a disproportionate share of federal money going to its poor Democrats through food stamps and Medicaid. When the beneficiary isn’t an individual, but rather a university, defense contractor, or Indian reservation, the picture becomes yet more muddled.

4. Given 1, 2, and 3, it can’t be said with any confidence that Republicans benefit more than Democrats from federal spending, or vice-versa, especially when secondary effects (like the grocer benefiting from food stamps) are taken into account.

5. Thus, the ever-popular “Makers vs. Takers” maps are of very limited value, especially when used to claim that as individuals Republicans derive more benefit from federal spending than Democrats.

[Bozuit]

That’s the problem with democracy: politicians end up just doing what people want.

[BrainGlutton]

@Bozuit

That’s the problem with democracy: politicians end up just doing what people want.

No. They end up doing what they think the people will settle for.

[Ibn_Warraq]

@DrDeth

No, not the middle class. It’s the rich, and the ignorant poor whites living in the South. Look at a map of the red states someday. Most millionaires and upper middle class live in Blue states.

Er… There are plenty of Middle Class and rich people in the South.

Lower-middle class is still middle class.

Lots of progressives love to rail against “ignorant poor whites” because it makes them feel morally superior, but most poor whites, like poor people in general either vote democratic of the don’t vote.