Token Women on TV shows

Since the 2010s, this has been true. Before that, they tended to go more to men. I suppose this is true of lots of things.

They write more, nowadays. I just read a two volume of “Years Best Fantasy” and something like iirc 75% were women authors, and one or two non-Binary. The best story was by Elizabeth Bear, but there was a lot of drek.

Quite a bit of modern fantasy by Women writers are really romances- like Fourth Wing by Rebecca Yarros, which is a romance with dragons.

I really do not like this Romantasy genre at all. But most of my fave YA fantasy is by women writers.

Now let me go off on a little rant here- Fourth Wing and A Deadly Education by Naomi Novik (and more) are set in worlds, where parents cheerfully send their children off to a school with something on the order of a 20% fatality rate per year. Where deadly student on student activities are allowed and even encouraged- not to mention monsters (mostly Novik) and extremely dangerous training. Would any sane parents send their kids off to die like that?

I went back on the Hugos to 1990, and they were pretty mixed back then, in fact in 1990 two major awards went to each gender. 2000- 3 men, 1 woman. In 2024 all four went to women, last I could see results, so yes there is a trend.

Have you looked at the Hugos for Best novel pre-1990? The first woman nominated was Leigh Brackett in 1956. Then Marion Zimmer Bradley in 63. Andre Norton in 64. LeGuin in 70. 1972 had 2 women for the first time: LeGuin again and McCaffrey. And so on.

Looking it up, their survival rate outside the school is even worse; 95% die.

Back when I was in high school, I was crazy about science fiction. There simply wasn’t that much available to a 14 year old girl back then, a few things at the library. I wasn’t alone, we all watched Star Trek faithfully and me and two female friends wrote our own science fiction stories. Illustrated! :joy:

I wish I still had that notebook I wrote my story in!

In television, especially comedy, that can be kind of a mixed bag. A lot of sitcoms are built around a main character who’s an idiot. Tim Allen was the star of Home Improvement, and almost certainly got the largest paycheck. Within the show, Tim Taylor was a buffoon who grunted like a caveman and broke everything he tried to fix. Homer Simpson, Peter Griffin, the guys on The Big Bang Theory; if that’s the way men are going to be portrayed, then by all means let’s have more roles for women.

An interesting counter-example is I Love Lucy. Lucille Ball was the star and the driving force behind the show. Is that the sort of non-token female role there should be more of; and would anybody call Lucy Ricardo a good role model for young girls?

I’m not sure that the most compelling test for men would be to just swap the genders of the original Bechdel Test. How about two male characters who talk to each other about emotions, or one of them admits to being afraid of something? What’s something that men experience in real life but is seldom portrayed in movies?

Yes, it’s a trend and not a sudden change at some point. At first there were hardly any women authors. Then slowly there began to be more and more women authors. Now the majority are women. The same is true of the readers. The readers have changed from mostly men to mostly women.

Kids in dangerous situations is kind of a staple of young adult fiction.

OK, that’s one kind of discussion that men have in real life, that might be underrepresented in movies (or might not be: I can think of plenty of examples). But as Bechdel points out, movies disproportionately portray women as having only one topic of conversation, not all but one.

Lucille Ball as the star and the main driver of the show is a great role model, even if the character she played is not.

But I would say the point isn’t to offer role models, but to represent reality and offer common, but overlooked perspectives.

This is an example of a conversation men typically do not have in real life. The point of the test (in it’s current usage) isn’t to identify works where women have atypical conversations, it’s to identify works where women have an identity besides men.

The original idea came about in a comic strip as a discussion between lesbians. As in “I don’t want to watch a movie if all that the women talk about is the men.” It’s a pretty low-bar: “I’d like to watch a movie where at least some of the dialog, I can relate to.”

I know many authors have chosen to use initials (or otherwise “altered” versions of their names) to hide the fact that they were women, but I haven’t heard that this was specifically true of Rowling. Anybody got a cite one way or the other?

The evidence is that early editions said “Copyright … Joanne Rowling 1997”, but this was quietly changed to “J. K. Rowling.” This was allegedly at the request of Barry Cunningham— that is what it says in A Guide to the Harry Potter Novels. Then there is Robert Galbraith, but that’s a different story.

Bad News Bears (1977) was the first movie where I saw other 13 year old boys speaking the same way my friends and I did.

From its title, Harry Potter and the Philosopher’s Stone looked like a boy’s book and Cunningham knew that boys prefer to read books by male rather than female writers. Thus Joanne become J. K. and the process of establishing the new author and her books began.

Note that claims like “Boys/men won’t read books about female characters” or “Boys/men won’t read books by female authors” don’t have to be true about all, or even most, boys/men—just enough of them to significantly affect sales.

Now I’m wondering if shows involving “token women/girls” in a group of otherwise male characters appeal, deliberately or not, to girls who want to be “one of the boys”: who are attracted by the idea of joining in on the kinds of exciting adventures and activities that males in fiction get to participate in, without giving up their femininity.

There was actually a directive from the head of the BBC in 2014 to add women to all panel shows. Mock the Week was the worst offender, and QI was bad too. Now you’ll see at least one woman panelist on those shows, as well as Would I Lie To You and Have I Got News For You. Taskmaster (not BBC) has always had at least one female contestant but it took a couple of series for them to have 2/5. It wasn’t until series 9 that they had 3/5 women.

It’s striking now if you watch older episodes of these BBC shows and it’s all male contestants. Conversely, it’s very fun when there’s an episode of QI with all women panelist, a female host, and Alan :slight_smile:

OTOH, the original Whose Line Is It Anyway? regularly featured multiple actresses per episode, which is more than can be said of either American version.

Not that much, and yes, before 1990 there were some women authors, but not many. However, 1956 SF was a different animal that today.

Good points, but I think SF is still somewhat more male readers, but Fantasy is more women.

Danger is one thing- constant death is another.