Thanks, Skald, for catching my typo. numerous Tolkien threads - I got sloppy.
She was both valorous and fey. I don’t think suicidal applies to her mindset.
Re: “duty” - I’ve been reading J.B. Bury’s 1910 Cambridge Medieval History, (8 volumes, $2.99 on my Kindle, w00t!), and from what I can tell, in medieval times “duty” often seems to have not been a foremost thought in most soldiers’ minds. I’m reading over and over, real-life examples of armies being commanded to “go here, do that”, and basically responding with “fuck that”.
Skald, I feel as though you have come into this thread convinced that she was suicidal. Is that the case? Also, “death-seeking” is not remotely the same as “suicidal”. It just isn’t. The end result may be the same, but not the journey, and the journey is all that counts.
Nope.
But you do think she was damaged and a broken bird. ?
I wouldn’t use the term broken bird. I wouldn’t call her pathetic or anything else derogatory.
But damaged? Certainly she was: in part because of the desperate situation of her country, in part because she was born in the wrong Age, and partly because of the (limited) effect Wormtongue had had on her. (ETA: If she weren’t damaged I’d find her much less interesting as a character. Eomer manages to get through the run-up to the war without suffering any obvious psychic damage, and he’s as boring as an augur.)
Also I think that her part of the story is an instance of one of Tolkien’s over-reaching themes: that God (okay, Eru) can turn anything that is bad to the good. Eowyn (and to a lesser extent, Merry) made a bad decision in going to the battle, but because of it, they played important (maybe crucial) roles in the good guys’ victory. It’s not unlike the way that Samwise’s unjust treatment of Gollom makes it easier for Stinker to win over Slinker; while that was wrong, if it had not happened, the West loses.
Thank you, I just wanted to get a feel for where you were coming from. I admit, while Eru certainly plays his part, I took away from her story this: That you aren’t necessarily born into the role that best suits you, and you should fight and strive for what you want. You may not get exactly what you wanted (a glorious death in battle) but you may get something better (love and family and a happy ending in the form of Faramir).
But I am always inclined to look less toward Gods and more towards humans and their motivations.
I agree that it’s her personality and depth that makes her more interesting. I like Eomer in his own way though; I always felt he’s a case of “still waters run deep” and has more in him than he lets on.
Anaamika nailed it, imo. I have never once, through multiple readings and viewings even thought of considering Eowyn as suicidal.
I see that distinction as well. She was “fey” - reckless, but would not have actually committed suicide.
For almost all of the people we meet in Middle Earth, there is a Destiny. Many of them don’t know it, but some sense it quite strongly. Eowyn could feel it, and knew that her Fate did not lie on the home front. A big part of her melancholy was from her strong feeling of thwarted purpose, and while riding to war didn’t make her suddenly happy, it relieved the tension of knowing you aren’t doing what you were meant to do.
Fate was telling her she needed to be there at the right time to confront the Lord of the Nazgul. She didn’t know that’s what was in store, but she knew something was, and that it would not happen in Rohan, but rather in Gondor.
It was that time of the month?
And the Nazgul got what was coming to him?
Because he was a man?
Look, I love Eowyn as much as the next person, but there’s no question in my mind that she bailed on her duty. She wasn’t left behind as a consolation prize. Theoden asked the people of Rohan (via his immediate circle) who should lead them in his and Eomer’s absence, and they said that rulership should continue with the House of Eorl, i.e. Eowyn. The non-combatants of the Rohirrim needed a leader all could accept much more than the Eorlingas needed an extra soldier, especially one who, no matter how brave, inevitably lacked battle experience.
As it happened, things worked out. Not only Eowyn’s act of valor on the Field of Pelennor, but the fact that Aragorn made it to Minas Tirith in time for the warriors he’d collected on the way to help finish off the attacking armies, and that the fact that the Ring was destroyed, ending the threat. But what if things hadn’t worked out? Eomer as well as Theoden killed, Gondor fallen, Mordor’s Orcs rampaging throughout the West. With a leader, with Eowyn, the non-combatants of Rohan (and the soldiers left behind for defense) had a chance of survival as a people, of seeking out the little known ways, hiding and striving as a people to live and perhaps someday to fight back. Not a good chance, but at least some chance. Without a leader, without cohesion, what chance would they have had? It probably should have been Eomer, but at the very least, they needed Eowyn. She had legitimacy as a leader, and that’s a crucial factor in effective leadership.
But Eowyn was a product of a glory-hungry culture, one in which personal “honor” was celebrated much more than responsibility, and a glorious death far more to be desired than a dutiful life. She probably grew up hearing tales of shieldmaidens, and learned everything she could about fighting, but I suspect within Viking culture (the basis for Rohan), warrior women were sung about more than they were actually seen. When push came to shove, I imagine most girls were told “Very nice, dear. Now run along and go mind your needle and have some babies, and let the men do the important stuff.” That’s a pretty shitty culture for a girl to grow up in, one where she’s inspired by role-models in songs and stories that in reality she would be unlikely to be allowed to imitate.
I don’t think Eowyn was actively suicidal so much as that she wanted glory on the field far more than she wanted to live. There is no question that she was valorous in the physical sense, although her moral courage fell short, since the morally courageous choice to make would have been to stay behind to lead her people. I think she would have preferred glory to life even if Aragorn had never come along, but his coming and then leaving just made that choice more compelling. Her uncle had been healed and didn’t need her anymore, the one man she’d seen who attracted her was off to the Paths of the Dead, and apparently wasn’t into her anyway, so what, to her lights, was left for her?
OY! - I really like your post - the leadership of her people wasn’t some nothing job, it was damn important too. Eowyn’s faults (she being a complex character after all) led her to abandon her post, but fate brought her ultimately to win out.
I can agree with that, mostly. After all, in the book Merry describes her face as:
But, that lack of hope was not felt just by her alone. Everyone felt that doom was upon them:
Even Theoden hints at it:
The book if full of endings; peoples fighting despite the fact that they expect to ultimately lose, or lose Middle Earth. The times are changing, and one can sit back passively, or ride forth on one’s own terms. Everyone in this book rides to their doom with eyes open, because the alternative is to let doom overtake them. By ordering Eowyn to stay behind, Theoden takes that choice away from her. She is just as valorous/suicidal as any other of the actors in the story.
I like what Saltire said about pursuing her destiny. In a song of Rohan they sing, “Forth rode the king, fear behind him, fate before him.” Certainly one could say the exact same of Eowyn?
I’ll end this with, I think, the saddest quote from the book. It’s about the Ents, but I think it reflects, in part, what all the heroes in the book feel:
“You were gonna take a bullet for me!”
“Actually, I was just counting on a lot of missing!”
-Johnny Dangerously
Lead them to do what? Oversee the transition of new management from Mordor?
Is there not a parallel with Galadriel? She’s the other famous female who went off to war. (No, Luthien didn’t go off to war.)
There are many ways of dealing with an occupying force. None of them is good. Some are better than others.
In the sparsely populated world of Middle-Earth, I think my gut instinct is to take everything we can and run. Probably through the Gap of Rohan and north into Eriador, but maybe into the mountains guarded by Helm’s Deep. There’s a hell of a cavern complex there, and some stores already in place. The problem is that the lifestyle/culture they’re looking to maintain is fundamentally pastoral, and that doesn’t work very well in mountains or caves.
In long run, in a post-Third Age, Sauron-controlled world, it’s probably a losing battle. But there’s a funny thing about conquest. If you’re going to get a decent return on the investment of conquering a land, you’re probably going to have to end up looking a fair degree like a good leader, because otherwise the populace is going to die off (and/or constantly rebel), and you’re not going to get any production. Sauron doesn’t care about that kind of thing, but you can bet that the Men fighting on his side do, and I haven’t noticed any lack of hunger (or greed in general) on the part of any Orcs.
But I digress. The point is, if the Rohirrim want to try to remain a people rather than just scatter to the winds and each family hope for the best, they need a leader, or they’re going to fall apart at the first difference of opinion between a couple of leading citizens. There were a fair number (several thousand) of lightly wounded and even fully fit soldiers left behind to protect the non-combatants. Without leadership, it’s a good chance that the soldiers will raid their own people, or, if they were ad hoc militia (that is to say, they’re really farmers or blacksmiths or whatever), they’ll just chuck defense and melt back into the populace. Without a focal point for loyalty as well as an ultimate arbitrater of conflicting viewpoints, Rohan as a culture is done. Since Sauuron’s triumph, maybe Rohan is done anyway, but their only chance of survival as a coherent group is with a legitimate and universally recognized leader. And the only one left is Eowyn, White Lady of Rohan and last living descendant of the House of Eorl.
Why do you say Sauron doesn’t care about the productivity of lands he conquered? Are you thinking of movie-Sauron, who seems mostly genocidal?
I think Sauron wanted the Elves gone (whether by being killed off or exiled to the Utter West didn’t matter to him), but he wanted Men to be his slaves. Productive slaves.
Well Sauron wanted to complete Morgoths’ debasement of Men by eliminating any knowledge of Eru or the Valar. Hunting down the scattered remnants of Rhohan or Gondor would be par for the course as he brought up eastern men. A lot like Morgoth’s settlement of easterlings around Hithlum in the 1st Age.