For the purposes of in game penalty, I agree intent doesn’t matter. But for whether to level fines or take draft picks, I think intent should, and does, matter.
I couldn’t help but notice that you didn’t provide an explanation, which is what I asked for. You only offered questions. I assumed that you didn’t have an explanation, so I provided the narrative for you to agree or disagree with. Provide your own explanation if you wish to, preferably with declarative sentences this time.
Yes. I asked a question. You didn’t answer it. That was kinda my point.
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Provide your own explanation if you wish to, preferably with declarative sentences this time.
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After Jones starts heading down the Pittsburgh sideline, Mike Tomlin, apparently watching the return on the big screen, takes a step to the right, putting himself at the very edge of the playing field, thereby committing a penalty. Jones, rather than running Tomlin over, cuts to the inside and is subsequently tackled.
Declarative enough?
It is clear enough, though patently absurd.
So, in answer to your question: barring a confession, there is nothing that would make me believe he did it on purpose.
After carefully considering all viewpoints, I conclude that the Steelers should lose their draft picks for the next 5 years.
How is it absurd? He’s saying that not only was Omar Epps not supposed to be in that HUGE white swath of field painted down both sidelines that coaches are supposed to KNOW that they nor their players are supposed to transgress, let alone enter the field of play for ANY REASON (other than a timeout, halftime, whatever), and Epps CLEARLY violated that rule…and his smirking expression after the fact proves to me that it WAS either intentional, or that he realized that he was being a dumbass.
Either way, he deserves what the NFL throws at him and the Steelers. You just cannot do that.
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It is absurd because his contention is not that these things happened, it is that they were done deliberately. That is absurd.
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Yes, he realized that he was being a dumbass.
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No, you cannot do that, which is why he should be fined and perhaps suspended a game.
Were those points in any way unclear since I said and agreed to those very things earlier in the thread?
It’s LeBron, so I’d cheer. 
Thanks, at least, for your honesty, if not the battle it took to get it.
I think Tomlin’s clear, deliberate step toward the field of play as he watched where the return was going, the clear illegality of his actions, the fact he’s been an NFL coach for years, including trips to Baltimore before thereby making his “mesmerized” statement little more than bullshit, and his shit eating grin afterwards combine to clearly indicate his intent. Your Steeler fan mileage may vary. But given the responses from the majority of people in this thread, your conclusion that it is absurd to conclude he meant his actions is laughable.
You are correct that Omniscient was talking about a play and not a game, so I mis-read what he wrote. But Omniscient got it right whereas you do not. He said it *may have *affected the outcome of the play. You are stating that there is no doubt that a TD would have been scored if Tomlin wasn’t near the sidelines. He may have, but he may not have. There is no way to know. But even if a TD was scored, the outcome of the game was not changed. It could have been, but it wasn’t. You are basing your argument on things that might have happened but didn’t. That’s like me saying that Jones could have fumbled the ball at the 5, and the Steelers would have recovered and returned the recovered fumble for a TD.
If, if if. If the Ravens scored a TD on that return, the Steelers could have returned the kickoff from that TD for a TD of their own, washing out the TD scored by the Ravens and leaving more time on the clock than the Steelers had left at the end of the game. Maybe they use that time to intercept a Flacco pass or a fumble for another TD.
You can “if” and “but” yourself to death, but the fact is, the Ravens won the game, and that’s that. The ultimate outcome of the game was not changed, regardless of what you are imagining.
I agree that the Steelers should take action if he did it on purpose. Up to and including firing him. But the Steeler should not lose picks or have their draft position altered.
After seeing this video, i have a harder time believing he didn’t know exactly what he was doing. He clearly steps toward the field AFTER the ball is being brought out of the end zone, and he appears to be looking over his shoulder right as Jones is nearing his right side.
This video shows his sliding out on the field before Jones cuts upfield, and his right foot is on the green part of the field. I have only heard he was on the white section, bad enough, but being on the field is ridiculous. And you will notice a subtle but clear look over his right shoulder BEFORE Jones gets there, which in my mind, at least, says he did this in purpose.
What the punishment should be isn’t clear to me. No one was injured, the Steelers lost, and Tomlin can never pull the stunt again. He’s had his one shot, he was caught, and that’s that. The fine is OK from the NFL… But the Steelers may want to send a message to him by suspending him for a few weeks. Or firing him at the end of the season.
Man, that’s sad. As a Steeler man, I’m embarrassed. The Steelers ARE supposed to be a classy organization, but this kind of behavior really undermines that image. If I were a Rooney, i’d think long and hard about his future.
I’m inclined to think he didn’t do it on purpose. Bill Belichick and John Harbaugh are both on record as saying losing your place on the field the way Tomlin did happens. To quote the article on Belichick’s thoughts:
And Harbaugh’s:
I don’t think either of them were going out of their way to be extra gracious. Seeing as both men have been in that position, had that perspective, and know Mike Tomlin personally, I think they have far more insight to the situation than we do. I just doing buy that Tomlin, a well respected coach with a good amount of job security, would resort to such a risky crime of opportunity given the high likelihood of failure, injury, and penalty.
Yes, Tomlin’s defense is mitigated somewhat by the apparent step he takes towards the field, but I think that is a somewhat unfair critique given it’s hard to impute ill will to a step taken during an event happening that quickly. I also doubt he would think he could time that well enough to avoid contact with the ref, Jones, or his players, or that he would risk getting clobbered by a guy running at full speed.
There’s very little doubt he would have scored if he hadn’t been forced to slow down and change course. You can insist that the theoretical existence of doubt it s meaningful if you like, but it seems pointless to me.
Of course it changed the outcome: it took four points off the board! You mean the Ravens won anyway, which of course they did, but Tomlin’s actions changed course of the game in a way that helped Pittsburgh. If Pittsburgh had been down 13 points instead of 9 late in the third quarter, they would have had to adopt a higher-risk, higher-reward game plan, and that probably would have helped Baltimore. It’s also less likely that Pittsburgh would have had a chance to tie the game late. And saying Jones would have scored and it would have been bad for Pittsburgh is different from saying “maybe it would’ve been fumblemania.” One is a likely outcome based on what happened, and the other is just a random guess. Random stuff does happen in football, of course.
The basic problem is this: you said Tomlin “did not impact the outcome at all,” and that’s a post hoc judgment and a way too broad of a statement. The most nuanced way to look at things is “It looks like Tomlin improved his team’s chances of winning by interfering with Jones’ return.” When you put it that way it sounds an awful lot like cheating. As it happens, Baltimore won anyway, so at least we don’t have to live with a lot of what-ifs and even playoff scenarios that would have been altered if the Steelers had come back and won. But it looks for all the world like Jones was going to score, and on the face of it we can say that four extra points would have given Baltimore a better chance to win. The fact that they lost anyway was the result of other things independent of Tomlin getting in the way. They were within one play of tying the game. Tomlin couldn’t make them score on that two-point conversion. But if the Ravens had had four more points, it is less likely that Pittsburgh would have been in that position. That’s kind of significant.
Erm… that’s what you’re doing. I’m talking about likelihoods based on the facts at hand. You can throw up your hands and posit random events if you like, but there’s nothing wrong with dealing with probabilities. We can do that rationally. In any event, your reasoning in saying “there is nothing but ambiguity in this case. The Ravens won. Tomlin’s behavior did not impact the outcome at all.” is wrong.
Look at the video. From the time Jones cuts towards the sideline near Tomlin (where Tomlin might think he has an opportunity to affect the play) to the point Tomlin jumps back to avoid contact is about 3 seconds. Do you really think he concocted this terrible plan in that time period AND was able to time this that perfectly while watching a delayed feed on a Jumbotron? Sure, it’s possible, but I see nothing in his behavior as head coach for the last however many years that suggests to me that that is in his character.
I think that’s a bit of a bizarre statement. If any team in the league has been cavalier about the rules and has had a win at all costs attitude it’s the Steelers under Tomlin. Does no one remember all the righteous indignation and eye-rolling when James Harrison and Ryan Clark and the rest of the Steelers were getting dinged with illegal hit flags?
What about this from last year? Emmanuel Sanders, Steelers fined for fake injury.
He didn’t need “concoct” this plan, he only had to wait for an opportunity. As soon as he saw Jones taking the sideline route, he takes that deliberate step to the right to put himself in a spot where he can affect the play on the field. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever for him to take that step unless he intended to effect the play.
When I saw the original replays, I was up in the air on whether he intended to or not. Once I saw that he took a deliberate step toward the field once the path of the return was evident, I was convinced that he got exactly what he intended.
The large-screen videos at sporting events are delayed? Do you have a cite for that?
I don’t think there’s a delay. Some players say they look at the Jumbotrons during the action.
Thanks, Marley. I didn’t think there was a delay.
Has anyone been to an NFL game lately? I haven’t, but the last time I went, which was a number of years ago, there was a clear delay, i’d say 3 seconds. And why would they even show the live game action on the jumbotron in real time? If that was the case, depending on the angle, Jones could have looked up at the jumbotron as he was running, and he could see where the defenders were who were trying to chase him down. That seems like an advantage that is just too good. I’d be surprised to learn the NFL hasn’t thought about is, but perhaps they haven’t. If players are watching the game on the jumbotron in real time, that’s not good.
Of course it seems pointless to you. It doesn’t help your point. Whether or not he scored, was tacked on the 5, fumbled, tripped on the turf, it doesn’t matter. The game was far from over at that point. No one is arguing that the Ravens came away from the exchange with 4 less points. But you have no idea how the rest of the game would have been played out. If the Ravens would have lost by 4 or less points, your POV is valid. They didn’t. They won by 2. Regardless of what you think, all we know is that there was most likely a 4 point change on that play. Of course, the Ravens still had great field position and could have scored a TD, right? If they did that, would you admit that you are incorrect here? Because that was also a possible and legitimate outcome of this whole thing. The Ravens could have scored the touchdown AND taken more time off the clock, thereby making the Steelers chances to win the game less likely. So by your logic, Tomlin would have actually HELPED the Ravens because he would have decreased his own teams chances of winning. You can’t ignore this part of the equation. It was not what Tomlin would have intended, but it could very easily have happened. Tomlin also had no way to know that a 15 yard penalty would not have been assessed on him, either after Jones was tackled or on the ensuing kickoff.
If you are talking about the outcome of the play, we agree in principle (On this point, I will concede he would have scored, even though we don’t actually know and can’t know. But i will give him the TD because I personally believe he would have scored). But if you are talking about the game, we do not. Sure, it changed the outcome for the gamblers maybe, or for someone who had the wining squares in a football pool, but the Ravens won and the Steelers lost. That, correct me if I’m wrong here, is not a change in the outcome of the game.
I think I see what you are driving at. But you need to be definitive here. Are you saying Tomlin changed the outcome of “the play” or “the game”? They are two different things.
A better chance to win? The Ravens won. You can’t get better than that. Just because they the Steelers had a chance to tie doesn’t change that fact. And if the Ravens score the touchdown on the return, like I pointed out, the Steelers would have had at least 2 if not more minutes of game time to work with. That’s also significant when you are looking at how a game will play out. This happened in the third quarter, not with less than two minutes to go in the 4th. Big difference, and you can’t honestly believe that if the Ravens would have scored there that they would have gone in shutdown mode… They have over a quarter of football left.
No, that’s what YOU are doing. You can’t make statements like you have and use them as if they are axioms in a proof. What does the word “likelihood” mean to you? Probability of outcome? That is exactly what an “if” statement is, correct? Just because they kicked a FG instead of scoring a TD doesn’t mean the result of the game changed. It didn’t. The Ravens won. Whether they won by 2 or 9 is only material if you had money on the game, not for the sake of this discussion. And again, if the Ravens took the ball and scored after that play, they would have had the same lead with less time to play.
You say you can deal with probabilities rationally. Well, yes and no. They are just probabilities, not statements of fact. You can’t say with a 100% probability that Jones would have scored, and this is the most slam dunk of all of the events. But their is a chance, no matter how small, that he doesn’t score. The rest of the game plays out on a completely different timeline, like a parallel universe from how the game would have played out if Tomlin was behind the white line. It’s a perfect example of Chaos theory.
One event will change all other events that follow. Once Tomlin interfered with Jones, THAT path was broken and a new path was taken. There are countless things that happen in a game that could have changed the outcome for both teams. You simply can’t make that leap with so much time left in the game. To say “The Steelers would have done this” and “the Ravens would have done that” is just guessing.
I think this new video shows Tomlin’s intent. He clearly steps out into the playing field after the play was started. Hell, you can see him step out to the position he was in when Jones almost ran into him.
IMO, in a perfect world, the following is what should have happened:
Jones is awarded a TD.
Steelers are given a 15 yard unsportsmanlike conduct penalty.
Tomlin is ejected from the game.
Tomlin receives discipline from the league, including one or a combination of a fine and/or suspension of one or more games.
Pretty weak sauce given that NONE of that implicates Tomlin, and the fact that those illegal hits were not particularly dirty plays for the most part.
Unless he was, for example, walking in that direction generally. We can’t see him the entire play, so there is no way of knowing. Besides, do you really think he was banking on the off chance that a kick would not only be returned, but that the runner would come to his side, and that he would be able to affect the play without being crushed by the runner, ref, or his own players? Keep in mind that there is no reason to think Jones would make an sincere effort to avoid him. Even so, Tomlin made this calculation in the 3 or so seconds since Jones cut towards him, with his back to the ball, while watching a screen above his head. Additionally, he (for some reason) figured that he would be able to get away with all of this? What sense would it make for him to do this?
All video feeds are delayed by nature. I think the delay is small relative to the delay in one’s reaction to trying to time an event while watching it from a different perspective and angle, but it is there. But, not I don’t have a cite either way beyond physics and anecdote.