Tonight's West Wing (11/7)

Cafe Society
1

Finally back to The West Wing As We Know It. The season premiere and the last few episodes were disapointing, but I liked this one.

I especially liked getting Hoines-The-Only-Conservative-Democrat back. I thought his gun debate with Bartlett was well done (though there wasn’t anything said that hasn’t been already 10,000 times). And I especially liked the General-dude’s conversation with Leo. The end of that was a real kicker. And a good point.

One question, though. What business does CJ have briefing the press on a random shooting in Texas? Seems too low-key for the White House to be involved in in any way.

2

Yeah, this is more like it. Newbie to WW, so first time I’ve seen Hoines. I enjoyed seeing a bit more balance in the political positions. Also not having Bartlett kissed up to and deferred to so much. Liked the discussion of Ephesians toward the beginning of the show. Josh came across as a bit of a jerk when he blew up at Donna. Is their relationship always so volatile?

Finally, is every shooting in America a topic for White House Press conferences?

3

It is when it pushes the white house’s agenda. A legally owned handgun in the hands of a (usually) responsible person killed a little girl.

At least that’s the reasoning I assume.

4

LOVED that. Well-acted, well-directed and tightly written. Plus, great work on continuity - they even mentioned the Surgeon General who advocated marijuana legalization last season. That was probably the best ep of the season so far. Specific thoughts:

-Apparently, my neighbor and I are psychic. Just a few days ago, we were discussing our prediction for the show’s reelection campaign, and she mentioned that Bartlet might not know that Hoynes is a recovering alcoholic (for anyone who doesn’t remember, Leo found out about it back in the first season). When Bartlet offered Hoynes a beer and Hoynes turned it down, there was a few seconds’ delayed reaction before we both shouted, “HE DOESN’T KNOW!” in unison. This is gonna be major bad news if it comes out during the campaign - either Bartlet knew, in which case there’s ANOTHER health issue the administration was concealing; or he didn’t know, in which case he looks weak, which is exactly the sort of thing you want to avoid when you’ve just revealed that the president has a serious disease.

-Suddenly I’m very, very scared for Leo. We all know he’s a recovering alcoholic and he got a major emotional blow with finding out that he killed civilians in Vietnam. Now, consider that (1) they made a point of bringing up that Margaret wasn’t there - and we know from an ep last season that Margaret worries and tries to make sure Leo doesn’t drink again; and (2) they also obliquely brought up alcoholism with the Hoynes thing. Right after Leo found out, they even cut directly to a shot of Hoynes with the water glass in his hand. Maybe I’m reading too much into it - but Sorkin doesn’t usually throw stuff in for no reason.

-Anyone else think that Josh is losing weight? He looked awfully pale and gaunt to me in the scene where he yells at Donna. There’s someone else to worry about - Josh isn’t the most emotionally stable guy.

-I’m somewhat disappointed in Donna - I do not think she’d be stupid enough to see Cliff again after they realized the conflict of interest, and it seems out of character for her to sleep with a guy the second time she sees him in any case - but the scenario was carried off well enough that I’m willing to forgive it. Great work by Janel Moloney, by the way. I really do expect to see her with an Emmy nom soon, especially if Allison Janney does the sensible thing and submits herself for Lead Actress next year.

-I’m totally loving how they’re moving the storyline of Sam’s disillusionment forward so subtly. Here again he’s out of the loop, working on an unimportant assignment - and it was made perfectly obvious when he barged into Leo’s war crimes meeting with news on the penny thing and had to leave awkwardly. My neighbor and I are betting on a Sam-centric Christmas episode this year.

-Jed and Abbey Bartlet have got the most adorable marriage in the world (well, short of Brad Whitford and Jane Kaczmarek). Flirting and singing Sinatra and arguing Scripture - aww.

-I suppose most people are going to be mooning over the Josh/Donna stuff, but as much as I like that relationship, I thought Sam’s scene with Donna was awfully cute in a platonic sort of way.

5

Oh yeah, one thing I forgot: I liked the new reporter guy and everything, but what the hell happened to Danny?

6

Well, I missed last week’s episode, so I was quite surprised to see that Donna was being deposed by a dude she slept with. I mean really. I know the show’s gotta have drama and stuff, but I just have a problem with this soap operish touch, though I can well imagine this kind of drama is rampant on the Hill. And while I’m at it, Donna’s character just gets on my nerves. She comes across as really whiny, ditzy, and in some ways not all that useful. Rob Lowe’s character–I forget his name–coached her at the beginning of the episode, telling her to just be honest and answer the questions and that she didn’t do anything wrong. So why did she lie about the diary? Didn’t she realize that if she lies and gets caught, there will be stiff consequences to pay? By being dishonest in the deposition, I presume to avoid having the privacy of her diary being invaded, she let down the team she works for–an interesting tie-in with Toby’s lecture to his staff about leaking out of context sensitive material to the press. Now she’s got not only Josh but the dude she slept with whose ethics I question as well since he hasn’t recused himself from her particular deposition, all up in her crack reading her diary.

Still, after I’ve said all that, I REALLY liked the overall structure of the episode. Basically it is about honesty and integrity–concepts that do appear to be absent sometimes from the media and from government officials. I thought that the most interesting plot line in the show was that of the reporter who got kicked out of Myanmar who had the juicy quotation from Toby and who refused to print it because he doesn’t like writing sensationalist gossip. He’s actually after news that will educate folks, right a wrong, and make a difference. Gee, what a novel concept. :rolleyes: It was a great episode.

7

I feel sorry for poor Sam. :frowning:
I was kinda annoyed at Donna too, because I thought she was smarter than that. Josh probably exploded at her because he’s under pressure right now. You have to remember that
1)He was hurt that the Pres. kept the MS from him. (as was the rest of the staff)
2)He blew the tobacco thing big time.

I’d probably explode too if my assistant came in and told me that she not only liked at a deposition, the man asking her the questions was a man she slept with.

I felt really bad about Leo. I like Hoines though. I’ve never really seen him before either, he seems a good sort.

8

Add my agreement to just about everything posted above. Donna’s lying was so unbelievably stupid! I thought Josh’s angry reaction was very appropriate.
I was a little confused at first, with the Pres coming home from church, and Donna heading off to the dep, I was uncertain as to what day it was before the lawyer said it was Sunday.
My wife and I watched it on tape after a Humanist discussion group meeting. On the ride home, we were discussing the prevalence and tone of religious representation on film and TV. (I felt religion was more prevalent and presented more favorably than the Mrs.) It was interesting to turn on the tape and be greeted almost immediately with an extended Bible discussion.

9

Crappity crap. Great episode, but I missed the last 15 minutes. Can someone recap the talk Leo had with Major Dad, the Bartlet-Hoynes conversation, and what Toby said to the interns/whatever they were? I’d REALLY appreciate it!

10

I tried watching the show last night, I had heard so much about how great it was. I turned on mid-show, watched up until the military man and sam(?) finished talking.

It seems to me the writing is really crappy, or the militaty guy was just plain fibbing. How could he be guilty of a war crime, I would assume Intent, or at least knowledge of ones actions would be required. The war crime would be with the people who told him to bomb the dam, not the pilot just following orders.

11

llama, like I said, I didn’t see that part. But you are not morally obligated to follow an immoral order, nor are you liable for court-martial for not following such an order. However, this is certainly a great topic for Great Debates - and if you want to post it, I suggest doing a little research first. I had an entire college course on just this way back when, and it was extremely interesting.

And I also suggest not tuning into an hour long program a half hour into it and making a cursory judgment.

But welcome to the Board!

12

But Leo didn’t know they were going after a civilian target. He wouldn’t have had a reason to decline the mission because it was an immoral order.

If everything went as it should, if Leo was brought up before the tribunal, he could say he was told it was a military target and the blame would shift to his commanding officer. However, in a tribunal, they just might decide that the explanation wasn’t good enough and punish Leo. I think that’s the point.

13

Unlike everyone else, I really sympathised with Donna this episode. It would be really scary to have everyone’s future riding on your every word, and I think in the same situation it would be really easy for me to just have a moment’s bad judgement and let a lie slip out. Plus, the whole time she has to stare down the guy she boinked when they both knew they shouldn’t have . . . sheesh.

I also thought she must have felt really humiliated as she sat on that park bench while Josh took care of everything like a big brother–especially given how there’s some romantic tension between Donna and Josh, and here’s Josh threatening the guy she had a fling with about make their sexual indiscretions public. . . sigh Poor Donna.

And, I’d like to add on a totally shallow note, that I thought Josh looked totally hot in this episode. I think men look really sexy in some faded jeans and a dark long-sleeved crew-neck shirt (don’t ask me why), and plus when he was reading Republican-boy the riot act and his face was half in shadow, I just thought, arf! He did look kinda sickly when he was chewing Donna out, but I thought it was mostly lighting. There was a lot of funny lighting that episode–the sunlight parts at the beginning were poorly done, IMHO–faces got washed out.

I think they dropped the ball on the concealed-carry issue. It seems obvious to me that the knowledge that some citizen(s) may have concealed firearms is a broader deterrent than unconcealed weapons, which only work if they are actually present. Don’t want to start a gun control debate, just wanted to say that I found the whole, “I don’t know,” line very disappointing. Whether you agree with the other side’s argument or not, ignoring it is a pretty petty tactic, and I’ve come to expect more intelligence from this show.

14

Argh! I’d love to discuss this with you, but I didn’t see that part of the episode.

15

I admit I haven’t seen all of them since the new season began, that’s why I’m asking: “What happened to Ainsley Hayes?”

Is she still on the show?

16

Yes, Ainsley is still on the show. She was in last week’s episode several times, but her character hasn’t gotten much to do yet.

17

Oh man, I agree. I’ve always thought Josh was easy on the eyes, but this last episode he looked great.
I felt sorry for Donna in the park. Who else thinks the reason she lied about it is because she confessed she’s inlove with Josh in it? Ok, maybe that’s too much like a soap opera, and maybe a bit predictable, but I think it would be interesting.

18

Doesn’t anyone else think Donna sub-consciously lied under oath because she knew Josh would bail her out and she wanted the attention from him? In my view she seemed happy to be sitting on that bench with Josh and having Josh save the day for her. She is really my least favorite character on the whole show, sorry to say.

If I can also be totally shallow for a moment, I think Sam was the one that looked TOTALLY hot and sexy in this ep. I wonder why Rob Lowe got shafted with the “get rid of the penny” sub-plot this week? I think he has really been under-used this season.

19

Toby goes into the mess to talk to the junior staffers. Bizarrely, he doesn’t yell at them; it’s more of an ‘I’m very disappointed in you, son’ speech. He says (paraphrasing from memory), “We’re a team, from the President on down. We win together and we lose together - and if you don’t like this team, there’s the door. You’re my guys, there’s nothing I wouldn’t do for you, and I need the same kind of loyalty out of you.” Sam comes in toward the end of this. They leave together. Sam says, “That was unexpected.” No kidding. Toby tells Sam he’s a very good deputy. I have no idea why Toby’s being so nice in this episode. He was behaving kind of oddly in his first scene with C.J. too, stuttering and stuff. Sam asks Toby about the penny thing; he figures out that the Speaker of the House (or somebody important) is from Illinois, and so was Lincoln, and that’s why legislation to get rid of pennies won’t pass. Sam runs off all happy and relieved that he’s figured it out. Hee. I love Geeky!Sam, he reminds me of me.

Leo & Major Dad. They’re still arguing. Major Dad brings out a file and starts reading from it about a bridge-bombing mission Leo flew when he was a pilot in Vietnam. Leo asks what that’s got to do with anything, since it was a civilian target. Major Dad says it wasn’t; it was a dam, and eleven civilians were killed. It’s hard to describe the look on John Spencer’s face here, but that man is totally up for the Emmy next year. Leo asks, “why did you tell me that?” Major Dad says Leo could be tried for war crimes. Leo: “Why did you tell me that?!” Major Dad says, “All wars are crimes,” and gets up and leaves. Leo still looks awful, and I’m worried about him.

Cut to the President and Hoynes. They’re still bitching about gun control, but then one of them brings up the MS thing. Hoynes yells about how the whole thing was mismanaged. Bartlet says that’s Hoynes’ fault - it was Hoynes gearing up to run in 2002 that made Toby suspicious enough to find out about the MS. Hoynes says he had every reason to think he was running; he’s mad that Bartlet went back on his promise not to seek reelection. They both agree that they need each other - Bartlet can’t win reelection without Hoynes, and Hoynes will never win the presidency if Bartlet drops him from the ticket. Hoynes agrees to go to Texas for the gun control talk, but there’s still obvious tension between them.

Finally, Josh and Donna. They’re both sitting on a park bench at night, not speaking. Cliff appears; Josh gets up and talks to him, with Donna remaining on the bench. Josh gives Cliff Donna’s diary. He says Cliff has an hour to read it, and if there’s anything he thinks is relevant to the investigation, he can issue a subpoena in the morning. Josh says he hasn’t read it, but in case anything happens that he doesn’t like, he’s got the entries about Donna’s dates with Cliff. Cliff agrees to everything and goes off to read the diary. Josh goes back to sit by Donna and wait. He puts his arm around her and says it’s going to be okay. She doesn’t say anything.

20

I agree with Podakyne’s point on concealed carry. I am personally not in favor of handguns, but there is a basis for the argument that not knowing who has a gun could be a deterrent. Not to go GD, just thought it was weak for Sorkin to gloss over that.

king of spain I got a bit confused over the Leo / Major Dad bit. My take was that MD was telling Leo that if he had told him at the time he could face war crimes charges. I taped it so can watch that bit again and see if I misinterpreted. Nice synopsis!