Toothpaste - fluoride, whitening

[samclem]

@chooch

Shot down where? So triclosan is different in toothpaste than it is in soap or the lab? Sorry, triclosan is triclosan.

chooch Let’s do this one piece at a time. When you say “triclosan is triclosan,” you’re brushing off the testimony of the lead scientist who did the study. He said (again)

“Our work never examined toothpaste,” says Peter Vikesland, Ph.D., of Virginia Polytechnic and State University. “We did a laboratory study predominantly with pure triclosan and chlorinated water, and some work with triclosan-containing dishwashing soaps.”

Anything can be hazadous in the right quantity, even water.

@chooch

Here’s a link about how it is creating superbugs.
http://antoine.frostburg.edu/chem/senese/101/consumer/faq/triclosan.shtml

This link has nothing to do with toothpaste. But thanks for linking to it. I’ve always wondered about anti-bacterial soap creating resistant strains of super bugs. This link explained how anti-bacterial soaps work. While they MAY help to create such bugs, it’s not quite like the antibiotic craze. From the article “Once inside the cell, triclosan poisons a specific enzyme that many bacteria and funguses need for survival [2,3]. Triclosan blocks the active site of an enzyme called enoyl-acyl carrier-protein reductase (ENR for short), preventing the bacteria from manufacturing fatty acids it needs for building cell membranes and other vital functions. Humans don’t have this enzyme, so triclosan is harmless to them.”

Oops. “Humans don’t have this enzyme, so triclosan is harmless to them.” Looks like this would not be in your best interest to cite.

@chooch

Here’s another. EPA rates triclosan as a pesticide, just like flouride.
http://www.health-report.co.uk/triclosan.html

This is just a scare quote. If the EPA has declared the concentration of triclosan in toothpaste or handsoap to be the same as a pesticide, then that’s stretching it.

@chooch

American Chemical Society.
Chloroform Danger With Antimicrobial Soap

ONe of the more convoluted articles I’ve ever read.

@chooch

UK Enviromental Agency, and mention of several companies voluntarily removing it from their products.
http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/business/444304/444362/368813/379069/876853/?lang=_e

It says “Several major retailers (B&Q, Marks and Spencer and Asda) have stated their intention to withdraw triclosan from their products.”

BFD. Proves nothing except they are trying to cater to a group that wants it removed. They caved.

@chooch

I could go on, but either you will be open to learning or not. Of course, it’s just impossible that something like this could cause a health problem. People are more healthy than ever, you hardly hear of cancer anymore, etc.

It’s not impossible, only improbable. Hyperbole doesn’t help your argument.

@chooch

I work in healthcare, and I can tell you there has never been such an explosion of auto-immune diseases, cancer and everything else, as in the last decade. And AI diseases cover a huge spectrum of health problems. Something has chanaged in our world to be causing these things, and it’s time we quit labeling every ligitimate question as conspiracy ideas.

In what capacity do you work in healthcare? There is an explosion in cancer? Give me a cite.

[nyscof]

Any studies that show fluoride or fluoridation reduces tooth decay are flawed as these two reviews of the literature reveal:
(1) The University of York, Centre for Review and Dissemination “What the ‘York Review’ on the fluoridation of drinking water really found,” Originally released: 28 October 2003 Centre for Reviews and Dissemination - Centre for Reviews and Dissemination, University of York

(2) National Institutes of Health, News Release concerning Consensus statement regarding Diagnosis and Management of Dental Caries Throughout Life, March 26-28, 2001,Vol. 18, No. 1 http://consensus.nih.gov/news/releases/115_release.htm

("… the (NIH) panel was disappointed in the overall quality of the clinical data that it reviewed. According to the panel, far too many studies were small, poorly described, or otherwise methodologically flawed" (over 560 studies evaluated fluoride use).)

After 60 years of water fluoridation delivered to 2/3 of Americans on public water supplies and 100% via the food supply, along with 50 years of fluoridated toothpaste which is 95% of the market, the U.S. Surgeon General
declared tooth decay a national epidemic. However, fluoride overdose symptoms (dental fluorosis) have skyrocketed. Dental fluorosis, white spotted, yellow or brown stained teeth is costing Americans more money to cover up than water fluoridation would save if water fluoridation actually reduced tooth decay.

New York State Coalition Opposed to Fluoridation
www.orgsites.com/ny/nyscof

Fluoride Action Network

[John_W.Kennedy]

What both of these websites actually say is that fluoridation works, and that, although further studies should be made, there is no proof of harm.

[mike1dog]

@seekerone

As pointed out by another post, we are not exactly becoming healthier by leaps and bounds due to our consumption of chemicals masquerading as food, water and various “healthcare” products. If we were, this conversation would most likely not even be taking place.

Then why is life expectancy so much longer than when we didn’t use these chemicals? By the way, if you wanted to live a life without chemicals, you’d die of thirst because water is considered a chemical.

[Ralf_The_Dog]

After 60 years of water fluoridation delivered to 2/3 of Americans on public water supplies and 100% via the food supply, along with 50 years of fluoridated toothpaste which is 95% of the market, the U.S. Surgeon General
declared tooth decay a national epidemic. However, fluoride overdose symptoms (dental fluorosis) have skyrocketed. Dental fluorosis, white spotted, yellow or brown stained teeth is costing Americans more money to cover up than water fluoridation would save if water fluoridation actually reduced tooth decay.

The increase in tooth decay comes from an increase in refined sugar in our diet. If you want a fight that will improve the health of the masses, fight against coke, white bread, and twinkies.

Colloidal silver is another danger that should be put away. What part of heavy metal do people not understand?

[BlueManGroup]

@Ralf The Dog

The increase in tooth decay comes from an increase in refined sugar in our diet. If you want a fight that will improve the health of the masses, fight against coke, white bread, and twinkies.

Colloidal silver is another danger that should be put away. What part of heavy metal do people not understand?

One of my 7,000 subscribers told me about Cecil’s articles and, knowing some of my thoughts on fluoride, thought I might wish to comment.

I maintain a very large database of cities, counties, states and countries that use, have used but now do not use, and/or have banned fluoridation (and yes this does include most of Europe). The information from all 50 states was from my visiting their web sites and/or emailing them. Most who did not post their info. already replied to my emails with word documents or excel spreadsheets documenting their fluoridation efforts in detail. The database can be found here:
http://www.just-think-it.com/the-f-db.htm

I have also written an article on fluoride, based on my ten years of study in my degree field of Chemical Engineering. Note that doctors are no more qualified to talk about fluoride than bartenders. But for some completely unclear reason people trust them. At any rate, my article is here:
http://www.just-think-it.com/no-f.htm

Finally, here are 150+ facts,horror stories and cover-ups about fluoride that I have compiled on one page:
http://www.just-think-it.com/f-facts.htm

I can confirm Chooch’s comments about fluoride, with the exception of triclosan which I simply have not looked into.

Another industry using fluoride and producing fluoride waste is the nuclear industry – uranium bonded with 6 fluoride atoms becomes a gas, and this helps separate the 2 uranium isotopes more easily. Early nuclear separation workers reported their teeth turning to black stumps, before they died from their contact with fluoride.

Fluoride used to be a highly toxic waste product that fertilizer, aluminum and nuclear companies had to pay heavily to remove. Now they dilute it into our water supplies, and our bodies, and we pay for this more-fatal-than-useful attempt at mass medication.

It is most interesting to watch people, without any facts, make derisive comments. I feel sorry for them but I care more about the 65% of Americans being systematically and continuously poisoned by rat poison.

For those in love with their fluoridated toothpaste, take heart. Crest is, at this moment, encouraging people to visit their web site and vote on proposed new toothpaste flavors. Ignorance is blissful, and fruit flavored, apparently.

Floyd
Principal,
Just-Think-It.com

[Bookkeeper]

@BlueManGroup

Another industry using fluoride and producing fluoride waste is the nuclear industry – uranium bonded with 6 fluoride atoms becomes a gas, and this helps separate the 2 uranium isotopes more easily. Early nuclear separation workers reported their teeth turning to black stumps, before they died from their contact with fluoride.

I am not a chemist (nor do I play one on TV), but the fact that uranium combines with fluorine atoms to form uranium hexafluoride should have no relation to the chemical properties of different molecules also containing fluorine. Am I wrong here, or is this something that anyone claiming expert knowledge of chemistry should know? If the latter, this makes the rest of your statements somewhat suspect.

[BlueManGroup]

@Bookkeeper

I am not a chemist (nor do I play one on TV), but the fact that uranium combines with fluorine atoms to form uranium hexafluoride should have no relation to the chemical properties of different molecules also containing fluorine. Am I wrong here, or is this something that anyone claiming expert knowledge of chemistry should know? If the latter, this makes the rest of your statements somewhat suspect.

Explaining how fluoride is used in the nuclear industry is just that. An explanation of why it is used.

The fact you choose to comment on this, and vaguely challenge it, is truly strange.

[John_W.Kennedy]

@Bookkeeper

I am not a chemist (nor do I play one on TV), but the fact that uranium combines with fluorine atoms to form uranium hexafluoride should have no relation to the chemical properties of different molecules also containing fluorine. Am I wrong here, or is this something that anyone claiming expert knowledge of chemistry should know? If the latter, this makes the rest of your statements somewhat suspect.

Yup, you got it!. Handwaving and scare language is what you do when you don’t have a real argument.

[BlueManGroup]

@John W. Kennedy

Yup, you got it!. Handwaving and scare language is what you do when you don’t have a real argument.

I appreciate your honesty in admitting that you have yet to make a single argument, John.

[samclem]

@BlueManGroup

I have also written an article on fluoride, based on my ten years of study in my degree field of Chemical Engineering. Note that doctors are no more qualified to talk about fluoride than bartenders. But for some completely unclear reason people trust them.

I would think that many doctors, depending on their field, might be more qualified to speak about fluoride and the human body rather better than many Chemical Engineers. It would depend on their respective fields of training and how critically they’ve learn to interpret data.

@BlueManGroup

I can confirm Chooch’s comments about fluoride, with the exception of triclosan which I simply have not looked into.

You mean that you also agree that the Nazi’s used fluoride to control segments of the population, making them “more docile and pliable to leading.” If you agree with this theory, then the rest of your arguments will be suspect. There have never been any studies that show that fluoride has these properties. The Nazis may have thought that it worked that way, but it didn’t and doesn’t.

@BlueManGroup

Another industry using fluoride and producing fluoride waste is the nuclear industry – uranium bonded with 6 fluoride atoms becomes a gas, and this helps separate the 2 uranium isotopes more easily. Early nuclear separation workers reported their teeth turning to black stumps, before they died from their contact with fluoride.

What fluoride compound caused their teeth to turn black before they died? What concentration? This may be covered in your article, which I haven’t read. I plan on that next. Just got home and decided to dash off these questions first.

@BlueManGroup

Fluoride used to be a highly toxic waste product that fertilizer, aluminum and nuclear companies had to pay heavily to remove. Now they dilute it into our water supplies, and our bodies, and we pay for this more-fatal-than-useful attempt at mass medication.

What fluoride compound comes as a waste product from these industries? Does it have to be converted into another fluoride compound before it is put into the water? “More-fatal-than-useful” sounds alarming. You mean people are dying from the water being fluoridated?

@BlueManGroup

It is most interesting to watch people, without any facts, make derisive comments. I feel sorry for them but I care more about the 65% of Americans being systematically and continuously poisoned by rat poison.

It’s even more interesting to hear someone who considers himself a scientist resort to equating the concentration of fluoride compounds in toothpaste with rat poison. But, if you don’t have an argument,…

[mike1dog]

@BlueManGroup

Another industry using fluoride and producing fluoride waste is the nuclear industry – uranium bonded with 6 fluoride atoms becomes a gas, and this helps separate the 2 uranium isotopes more easily. Early nuclear separation workers reported their teeth turning to black stumps, before they died from their contact with fluoride.

Oh no! You know if oxygen combines with uranium, you get uranium oxide. Maybe I should quit using oxygen.

[Liberal]

Just letting someone know you left the dot out of the link on the front page.

[samclem]

@Liberal

Just letting someone know you left the dot out of the link on the front page.

Lib–just to let you know. You’ll get better service by emailing Dex or tuba on this kinda thing. Your post here is buried. They’ll likely never see it.

I’ll take care of it. Thanks for discovering this.

samclem

[Liberal]

Okely dokely. Sorry about that. And thanks.

[TubaDiva]

Lib (and everybody else), if there’s a problem with the front page, just drop me an email, please. It’s my problem. Sorry you had a problem with it. It’s fixed now.

your humble TubaDiva’

[BlueManGroup]

>>>You mean that you also agree that the Nazi’s used fluoride to control segments of the population, making them “more docile and pliable to leading.” If you agree with this theory, then the rest of your arguments will be suspect. There have never been any studies that show that fluoride has these properties. The Nazis may have thought that it worked that way, but it didn’t and doesn’t.<<<

In fact it was the Russians, in World War 2, who used fluoride to control prisoners of war.

>>>“More-fatal-than-useful” sounds alarming. You mean people are dying from the water being fluoridated?<<<

People on dialysis use much more water than normal, thus getting a much higher dose of fluoride than the general population.

>>>It’s even more interesting to hear someone who considers himself a scientist resort to equating the concentration of fluoride compounds in toothpaste with rat poison. But, if you don’t have an argument,… :)<<<

I am not “equating the concentration” – I am echoing the well known fact that the active ingredient in rat poison is the very same fluoride compound added to toothpaste.

Comment about the posters here:
I am of the impression that the people posting skeptical remarks here know approximately nothing about fluoridation. Surprisingly, instead of this prompting them to pepper their posts with links supporting their new found knowledge they instead try to demonstrate that there are flaws in what I have said – in the most amateurish fashion I have ever seen.

Repeating my initial reason for being here – to rebut Cecil’s article – I shall now depart and leave it to the know-it-all-know-nothings to debate how many fluoride molecules can dance on the head of a uranium pin.

[samclem]

@BlueManGroup

>>>

Repeating my initial reason for being here – to rebut Cecil’s article – I shall now depart and leave it to the know-it-all-know-nothings to debate how many fluoride molecules can dance on the head of a uranium pin.

Hey! What am I? Chopped Liver?

If you COULD debate, you would.

What else can we conclude?

Yours in heath for the masses, I remain,

samclem

[samclem]

@BlueManGroup

In fact it was the Russians, in World War 2, who used fluoride to control prisoners of war.

Hey. Nazis, Russians. It’s all the same. It NOT true. They THOUGHT that that’s the way fluoride worked, but it doesn’t.

@BlueManGroup

>>>“More-fatal-than-useful” sounds alarming. You mean people are dying from the water being fluoridated?<<<

People on dialysis use much more water than normal, thus getting a much higher dose of fluoride than the general population.

Hey! They are gonna die anyway. Who cares? :rolleyes:

@BlueManGroup

>>>It’s even more interesting to hear someone who considers himself a scientist resort to equating the concentration of fluoride compounds in toothpaste with rat poison. But, if you don’t have an argument,… :)<<<

I am not “equating the concentration” – I am echoing the well known fact that the active ingredient in rat poison is the very same fluoride compound added to toothpaste.

. I missed it the first time. WHERE did you get your degree from?

@BlueManGroup

Comment about the posters here:
I am of the impression that the people posting skeptical remarks here know approximately nothing about fluoridation. Surprisingly, instead of this prompting them to pepper their posts with links supporting their new found knowledge they instead try to demonstrate that there are flaws in what I have said – in the most amateurish fashion I have ever seen.

Impressions are so deceiving. I was under the impression that you had the scientific background to defend your position.

[Pure_Doxyk]

@samclem

I’ll help you out.

From http://www.ada.org/prof/resources/pubs/adanews/adanewsarticle.asp?articleid=1375

So that one’s shot down.

Er…no, that one’s NOT shot down. In fact, you’ve provided evidence that triclosan HAS been proven to be dangerous. The researcher’s comment to the effect that “Just because it’s dangerous in soap doesn’t mean it’s dangerous in toothpaste” is hardly evidence to the contrary–it just means there isn’t definitive proof yet. But there certainly is reason to suspect.

Having heard equally vehement arguments for and against Flouride, I’m interested in more about this, and claims of this type–including sources! Also, I wish Cecil would have addressed non-toothpaste options, like salt, baking soda, weak peroxide solutions etc.

-PD