Top notch female martial artist versus 6' 4'', 250 pound man -- Who wins?

In My Humble Opinion
81

  1. woman - fighting is more than just being strong. Couch Potato’s attacks will be slow and clumsy, without any underlying technique. Easy to defend against. There are attacks by the woman that can hurt even a big man, kneecaps, chokes, armlocks, etc. CP doesn’t know how to defend himself from attack and his reactions will be slow. CP will get tired quickly, he doesn’t know how to save his energy during a fight, he’ll blow his load in the first minute. The whole “rush and pound” technique is a joke, anyone worth their salt would side step a rush and not get dragged down.

  2. toss up - everything for #1 applies, but the attacks will be quicker, his reactions quicker, and he won’t tire as quickly. He can still get taken out by a good technique, but he stands a better chance of successfully getting his attack to work first.

3+4) man - These are people who know how to attack and defend. The techniques that are going to take out a big opponent are not easy, these guys will be on guard for them. She’s not going to be able to wear them down, she can’t just take them out straight up blow for blow.

I can’t see how anyone can consider #4 a tossup, there’s a reason weight classes exist, it is the truly rare person who can go up 5 weight classes and win a match.

82

[QUOTE=China Guy]
Then it really depends on who gets in the first knee break. You can break someone’s knee with as little as 8 pounds of pressure in the right place. It’s not strength, it is placement and speed. we trained a lot with many different techniques and scenarios to break knees

Jumping spinning back kick upside the head and big ass jock was out on the ground. Lucky he didn’t have a shattered jaw. Of course he was a dumbass and wasn’t expecting anything.

[/QUOTE]

Correct. “Breaking knees” is the best choice while sitting for your proctored martial arts exam, but when a big, bad street tough is rushing you like a bat out of hell, lots of luck, ace. It’s like someone, posting above, who suggested a foot sweep. There aren’t enough rolling eyes on Earth for the foot-sweep scenario, unless we trot out the Chuck Norris spinning back kick scenario or the even more preposterous black belt in Aikido defensive scenario. :wink:

You say you have “trained” a lot at breaking knees. How many knees have you actually broken in a street fight? How many bloody street fights have you been in against really experienced, really big, really brutal nut cases? Ever precisely apply those 14 lbs. of pressure to a knee, under potentially kill-or-be-killed conditions?

83

China Guy, my intended tone was less snarky than my post above may read. No disrespect intended, Kwai Chang Caine. :wink:

84

[QUOTE=Snarky_Kong]
I don’t have anything to add. I just want to ask a question. To the few people that said a martial artist female would have a decent shot against a martial artist that’s 8" and 100lbs larger, really? She’s going to give up a ton of reach, even if she could take him out in 1 hit, how’s she supposed to land it?
[/QUOTE]

We weren’t really given a whole lot of detail in the OP as to what sort of training the various people had, which is probably a good thing. This was moved into IMHO because we’ve moved into anecdotal evidence and personal opinion, so any scenario I propose, any of the half-dozen martial artists who are agreeing with me could propose a counter-scenario. There is no one true way. There’s a reason there are a jillion martial arts styles. Well, there are several reasons, one of them being money, another being laziness. But there’s a reason why we have several dozen, if not several hundred, seriously capable martial arts styles available for study, and the reason is, they all work, within certain parameters. The vast majority of them work such that a top-notch martial artist can mop up the floor with an unskilled combatant. If that’s not the case, find another freaking dojo.

I am an accomplished martial artist, not a top-notch martial artist. I am not a woman. However, I would not in my nightmares call out any of the female black belts from the Shotokan dojo for a real fight. Not even the short ones. And, by the rough guidelines we’ve agreed on in this thread, they’re not top-notch, either.

And that’s as anecdotal as I’ll get. *Chronos, China Guy, and the others who stepped up to say that size ain’t everything and upper body strength only helps if that’s your game plan, thank you. I was feeling a little lonely on this side…

85

[QUOTE=Cheesesteak]
The whole “rush and pound” technique is a joke, anyone worth their salt would side step a rush and not get dragged down.
[/quote]
Don’t watch the UFC much, do you?

It takes relatively little power to poke someone in the eye, true. Unless he closes his eyes, in which case it becomes more problematic. It is also the case that a poke in the eye does not nullify the momentum of the rush that is probably the best choice for the man in most of these scenarios.

Likewise with the nut-kick tactic. Very good in practice, provided the bad guy hangs around in kicking range long enough to give you a clean shot. Lying on your back with 250 pounds on top of you makes the groin attack much more difficult, and I include knee kicks in that.

You mention that the woman would not fight “like a man”. The trouble is, most fights don’t happen where the winner fights “like a man” either. One of the most common attacks in street fights (in my experience) is the rush - where the other guy ducks his head and charges at you, grabs you, and drags you down to smother you with his superior weight. His head is down so it is difficult to attack the face or eyes. He is crouching and moving forward rapidly so his groin is difficult to attack successfully. And, no matter what you do to him, you have to deal with the momentum of his weight coming at you. That doesn’t go away because you used your Magic Ninja Death Strike to his chakra, or even a round kick to the side of his head. And if he is taller than you, it is much harder to get out of range so he can’t grab you with his longer arms.

In my experience, the three most common street attacks are [ol][li]a rear leg front kick to the groin - not a high-probability attack to try on a woman. But something most men expect in a street fight with anyone.[]A flurry of punches to the face, coupled with a forward advance. Difficult for someone with less upper body mass to deal with - not impossible, just difficult. []A rushing tackle, followed by ground-and-pound. See above for the difficulties in dealing with that.[/ol][/li]

Not really. Men tend to be stronger in the legs as well, just that the disparity is not quite as marked as with the upper body.

In our scenario, even the couch potato is going to have stronger legs than the woman. He is used to carrying 250 pounds on his legs every day of his life.

Men are stronger than women all over. Check out the world records in the squat,, for instance. The superheavyweight record for women is 290.5 kilos. Notice also that the world record for 52-kilo men is higher than that. And superheavyweight men can bench more than superheavyweight women can deadlift.

Men have a huge physical advantage over women - they are bigger and stronger. Size matters.

This is not a guarantee that any woman will lose a fight against any man. There are no guarantees in fighting. But women are always starting from way back, and sometimes no amount of training can overcome that initial disadvantage.

That’s why I mentioned, and repeat, that escape is nearly always the best tactic for a woman against a man.

[ul][li]Make noise []Throw your purse one way and run the other way []Make more noise[/ul] [/li]
And this assumes that your first line of defense has failed, which is to avoid fighting in the first place.

Regards,
Shodan

86

What Shodan said.

87

I am surprised that people in the know give the woman so little chance. The only guy I have ever known who was more than a dabbler in martial arts had two fights that I saw - one ended with a kick to the head and the other ended with him smashing a guys head into the bar at a pub. The actual fighting time was a few seconds each time. I fooled around sparring with him a few times and it would get to the point where I was scared to move in case I walked into something - I couldn’t figure where any blows were coming from.

However for a while there was a guy hanging around our group after high school, who was a former amateur boxing champion ( lightweight I think). He was only a little guy but constantly got in fights and, although he was a lovely mover, routinely got knocked on his arse.

I am surprised that a “top notch” female martial artist can’t routinely knock out the uninitiated with a single blow but I guess they are fighting at mostly featherweight or less.

Interesting thread.

88

[QUOTE=Shodan]
Don’t watch the UFC much, do you?
[/QUOTE]
The UFC is not exactly a haven for 250 pound couch potatoes with no fighting experience, or has it changed over the years? If all it took was size and strength, Royce Gracie would never win against an opponent who has a 100+ pound weight advantage, but he did, and against skilled opponents who had big weight advantages.

A person who is out of shape and does not know anything about fighting is not going to take a skilled fighter and drag him down into a grappling match. Not easily, anyway. Our couch potato will also have no idea what to do once he gets there, or do you call lying on top of someone a victory, because that’s about the only way he’s going to grapple without getting his elbow dislocated, or choked unconscious.

89

I’m also thinking that people are greatly overestimating the physical capabilities of a couch potato. I’m thinking, AV club in high school, MBA in college, working as a tax accountant. Other people are thinking, football team, soccer, maybe some hockey, got beat up a lot in school… these are not the same people. One of them has absolutely no idea how to handle himself in a fight, and the other does. Both are couch potatoes, but surviving a few fights, even if it’s just playing a season of football in high school, teaches you things about what you can and cannot do that a lifetime of cost analysis will not match.

90

[QUOTE=Ethilrist]
One of them has absolutely no idea how to handle himself in a fight, and the other does.
[/QUOTE]

Well, the other assumption that I’m making is that either of these guys (all 4 of them, actually) really, really want to end this woman. As in, kick her ass. As in, she’s not getting up after.

I think a big guy that doesn’t know how to handle himself that’s goofing around would get his ass kicked.

I think a big guy that doesn’t know how to handle himself, was in AV club, MBA, tax accountant who is also consumed with rage and is hell bent on distroying the woman is going to be a much bigger problem for her.

YMMV

91

I think a couple of factors that come into play are the extent to which the woman MA has trained full contact against larger male opponents, and the degree of committment by the male. Yes, Tank Abbott could overpower the majority of men and women. But IMO&E, someone who has trained well has a considerable advantage against an untrained opponent, no matter what the opponent’s size.
For one thing, the MA should be able to switch into fighting gear quicker, giving them a speed advantage. IME fights are rarely decided by a single incapacitating technique. Instead, you land as many blows that are as damaging as possible as quickly as possible. The MA seeks out the targets that are presented - and generally each strike gets a reaction from the opponent that opens up additional targets. And, IME, a big opponent can cause you momentary pause, but bigger quite often means slower, and if a big guy has no experience in fighting, they are essentially a large target. It is hard to overstate the extent to which an untrained opponent has no idea of how he is presenting vulnerable targets, or how ineffective an untrained uncommitted opponent can be at throwing a single punch or reacting to being punched.

-The aggressor has the advantage of setting the tone of the fight - having the opponent defend against the aggressor’s fight.
-Other factors include the individual’s ability to take a punch. The MA may well be better able to continue despite absorbing damage, whereas any pause or pain reaction just creates another opening.
-Then there is the mental element - how badly does the person want to injure the other. IMO couch potatoes, fit individuals, and most classically trained MAs have little idea about exactly how ugly it is to damage another human, and will have difficulty quickly transporting themselves into the state where they will readily drive their thumbs into someone’s eyeballs, bite off an ear or a nipple during a clinch, etc.
-I always have difficulty when people state things like “real fights generally end up on the ground.” IMO, a good number of physical conflicts are macho pissing contests, rather than actual attempts to injure the other party. And IMO UFC/NHB - involving two willing and prepared combatants - has limited relation to a many potential street conflicts.

So I would bet on the woman (or smaller man) in 1 and 2, and the man in 3 and 4.

I’m 6’3" 200#, and was pretty accomplished at my prime, but have no qualms admitting that the wife of one of my instructors would have had little difficulty messing me up.
And another guy who used to give me all kinds of trouble sparring was little more than 5 feet tall - I really had trouble with his quickness.

I fought a number of local NHB contests, as well as grappling and striking matches. My preference would be to fight a untrained guy who was much larger than me, than a highly skilled experienced fighter who was considerably smaller than me. (At the time I was fighting, I weighed 185#, which was generally the bottom of the unlimited heavyweight class. As such I often fought 300 pounders. I am well aware of the advantage of size - which is why I intentionally built myself up to 215#.)

92

[QUOTE=Sam Stone]
Okay, but what if the woman has a pointed stick?
[/QUOTE]

I believe that’s called “penis envy” and has no bearing on the outcome.

93

If that’s actually one of the most common tactics in a real street fight, maybe I’d be a better street fighter than I thought, because that’s about the easiest conceivable attack to defend against. Reach out and grab the top of the guy’s head, push him to one side, and step to the other. He’ll just go right past you. Worst case scenario, you’re back to square one, or much more likely, he’s off-balance for a moment.

And I still say the couch potato has no chance. Any couch potato, versus any athlete, the athlete’s going to win, no matter the athlete’s size or sex. The athlete will almost certainly be quicker than the spud, and so will be able to avoid his attacks until one of them gets tired, and the one who gets tired first won’t be the athlete. If the athlete’s field happens to be a martial art, why, so much the better.

94

[QUOTE=Shodan]
Don’t watch the UFC much, do you?
It takes relatively little power to poke someone in the eye, true.
[/quote]
It also doesn’t take that much to take out someone’s knee, break someone’s shin, or dislocate someone’s shoulder (this is suprisingly easy). A poke to the eye, while still closed, still hurts. All these maneuvers hurt that much more when the guys puts his weight and momentum into it. Case in point, we were playing basketball last Friday and some dude went for a ball strip (older guy, not very fast) on a guy driving the lane (very young, very fast), and the dude driving the lane caught it in the eye. There was no mark on the guy’s face, but he went down for at least 30 secs, not moving, just rubbing his eyes. No scratched cornea, no swelling, but enough to distract and stop his progress.

No couch potato is going to fight like that. He is used to sitting on the couch not attacking. He will try pansy looking punches with his dominant hand. He’s not looking to take a blow at all. This is true of the in-shape dude (except he will be quicker, won’t tire as fast, and will have somewhat more natural form). The girl, a top-notch fighter, in many disciplines, will have an array of techniques to use at her disposal, including, but not limited to: joint locks, throws, chokes, grapples, knee and shin breaks, and the aforementioned eye gouges. These guys, like the street brawler, will not be used to kicks or knees. How many street fights do you see people kicking? I’ve never seen it and I used to bounce in college. A missed break, but still connecting hit will hurt like hell.

I used to watch a lot of MMA fights when I was in college, and pure strikers, like the street brawler would get choked out by a slower moving Oleg Taktarov or Royce Gracie (who in one fight immediately went to his back and got a triangle choke hold). Look at what Oleg did do the quintissential street fighter Tank Abbott. Assuming the street brawler isn’t top notch, this will be a more even match for the girl, but as I said before, too many chances for the girl to make mistakes and lose to size and weight.

95

Anecdote:
When I started a Kung Fu class, taught by varying male and female instructors, with mostly other female classmates, the instructors told us that, on average, a woman would need to train three times as long and be three times stronger and faster to gain an advantage over a man the same size/height with only average build.

It’s a total kind of WAG/YMMV explanation, but it does have merit.

Men have loads more upper body strength than us chickies. They can really use that to their advantage in a fight. And they are naturally bigger and stronger and faster. Of course there are women who are naturally just big and strong, or fast, and they could kick a guy’s butt, but most women don’t have that advantage.

We were taught never to fight fair in a real confrontation. Always try to run, scream, look for a weapon, fall to the ground and kick. If you have to stand and fight, go for the balls and the kidneys. And this is advice given by women who look like they could kill you with their bare hands.

If they were to initiate and plan an attack on an unsuspecting man, I think they would win (after all they have some pretty spectacular weapons, like antler knives.)

I did (controlled) sparring/punching drills with my male class partner (a casual friend), who’d been with the club for several years. I felt pretty good about it, like I could take a couple of surprise punches and not turn into a screaming wuss. Some months later, I had to wake up my class partner at 5am one morning (to go help a friend with her move.) Mr Grouchy-in-the-morning out and out punched me, and I realized as I doubled over that he had never really ever hit me with even half his strength. Ack.

So, I think that the dude wins. Almost always. However, if the trained woman starts the fight, or if the man in no way expects that the woman will fight back, she has a good chance.

96

[QUOTE=Shodan]
One of the most common attacks in street fights (in my experience) is the rush - where the other guy ducks his head and charges at you, grabs you, and drags you down to smother you with his superior weight. His head is down so it is difficult to attack the face or eyes. He is crouching and moving forward rapidly so his groin is difficult to attack successfully. And, no matter what you do to him, you have to deal with the momentum of his weight coming at you. That doesn’t go away because you used your Magic Ninja Death Strike to his chakra, or even a round kick to the side of his head. And if he is taller than you, it is much harder to get out of range so he can’t grab you with his longer arms.
[/QUOTE]

My recommendation is uppercuts while backing/angling away. YMMV. But a good, quick, determined shoot is extremely hard to deal with. Someone with the ability of a decent college wrestler can get real low and shoot in really quickly - giving mucho trouble to many many experienced MAs.

97

[QUOTE=Chronos]
If that’s actually one of the most common tactics in a real street fight, maybe I’d be a better street fighter than I thought, because that’s about the easiest conceivable attack to defend against. Reach out and grab the top of the guy’s head, push him to one side, and step to the other. He’ll just go right past you. Worst case scenario, you’re back to square one, or much more likely, he’s off-balance for a moment.
[/QUOTE]

You seem to be envisioning an attacker standing 8 feet away, bending at the waist, and then running in a straight line at the defender with his head down. Ever seen a guy charge the mound? When he arrives, he slows down and still tries to hit the pitcher with some momentum even though the pitcher is waiting for him. The only time I saw a guy actually control a head and move the opponent to the ground was when Don Zimmer charged Pedro Martinez.

I’ve seen bull-rushes in fights, but they almost always start from in-close, with a chest-shirt grab (or a bear hug), and driving the guy backward. The backwards guy loses balance, and they both go down, and then it’s on.

I’m thinking back to the fights of seen in my life.

Some real examples:

One fight I’ve seen that didn’t go to the ground: Two guys face to face, giving each other shit. One of them – very quickly – punched the other in the mouth. They were both kind of shocked. The puncher stood there ready for more, while the other guy inspected the blood, said some shit like, “you’re not worth it”, and walked away. The punchee was my best friend in high school. The other guy wasn’t worth it, but he still would have kicked my friend’s ass.

Another fight I’ve seen that didn’t go to the ground: Two guys face to face. Some punches, some grappling, one guy got into a classic headlock and started getting punched in the face until onlookers broke it up. This is the same thing that happened when Robin Ventura charged Nolan Ryan. This was in the high school hallway.

Generally every other fight I’ve seen: Two guys chest to chest acting tough. One guy shoves the other in the chest, and then is on top of him as they both crash to the ground. Usually some rending of shirts, some wrestling, and the fight is over when the spectators decide the loser has had enough. From down positions, I’ve seen the guy on bottom rain blows on the top’s face, and I’ve seen the top rain blows on the bottom’s face.

I’ve also seen a guy throw something (a soda in a paper cup) at a guy’s face, and then tackle him when he raised his hands to defend himself.

I saw two guys in a bar once that were face to face in a narrow hallway. That fight went to the ground immediately and was broken up quickly.

Anyway, I’d be interested in hearing more real world fight stories. Anything I’ve seen that goes on for any period of time goes to the ground, and everything goes on for a period of time unless people stop it. That is, I’ve never seen a person just incapacitated by getting punched or kicked.

I’m sure you could find some real fights at youtube if you tried. Fights aren’t neat. The participants are off balance. There’s a lot of clothes-grabbing. I’ve seen a couple fights where one guy just doesn’t fight back. He sorts of “reasons” (as in “what the fuck man? I ain’t gonna fight you”) even as he gets punched, until the other guy doesn’t see the sport in it.

And I’ve never seen a fight that goes down get back up.

98

[QUOTE=don’t ask]
I am surprised that a “top notch” female martial artist can’t routinely knock out the uninitiated with a single blow but I guess they are fighting at mostly featherweight or less.
[/QUOTE]
True one-punch knockout power on a consistent basis is rarer then you might think, especially at the lower weight classes, and even a lot of well rounded UFC fighters lag behind boxers in that regard. Even with extremely effcient technique you have to have some mass behind it to knock someone out.

A smaller trained fighter against a larger trained fighter is better off relying on better speed, footwork and better conditioning, which I don’t think I’ve seen mentioned yet. Fighting is draining, both aerobically and in terms of muscular endurance. If you’ve never been in the ring before you’re a mess by the second round, no wind and barely able to hold up your hands, much less throw a punch with anything behind it. A smaller trained fighter will generally have much, more gas in the tank than an untrained fighter, or even some good street brawlers. Tank Abbot is bad in that regard; he comes out like a terrifying hurricane, but then after a minute and a half he can barely swing his arms. If you can live through that initial fury you can submit him, but most average people can’t.

That’s why even the disagree-ers among us agree the ground-and-pound would be the technique of choice for our untrained couch potato, because it uses his greater mass to his advantage and takes the female martial artist out of her striking range. If he pulls it off successfully and gets a full mount on her, no argument from me that she’s royally screwed and he will beat her at his leisure. This happened even to male martial artists in the early UFC’s who would get elephant-charged and destroyed by wrestlers and had no experience with takedown defense or fighting on the ground.

Still, if they know what they’re doing, a smaller fighter can use the ground to their advantage, by going to the guard instead of getting mounted and by chokes and locks that rely more on skill than strength. Submission grappling ideally relies on as little strength as possible; paradoxically one of the first lessons you need to learn is to relax, or you’ll be gassed in a minute and a half and not be able to do anything. I can grapple my kickboxing trainer and submit him fairly regularly after a couple of minutes, but admittedly this is while he’s not punching me in the face, which is kind of his forte.

99

[QUOTE=Dinsdale]
My recommendation is uppercuts while backing/angling away. YMMV.
[/QUOTE]

That scenario is just too neat, I think.

I know. . .it’s easy to picture a man, head down, coming forward, while a person throws uppercuts to face, calmly backing away at the same speed.

In reality, the “charger’s” head is moving, his hands are out, he’s changing direction, and speed. If his head is low, you have no leverage for an uppercut to the face, and any other punches are landing on skull. Uppercuts, anyway, need to be twisted into to have any power beyond being an arm punch. Throwing one while back away would be very weak.

I still think people are ignoring the size difference. 6’4" 250 is the size of NFL linebackers. Even the couch potato isn’t grossly obese at 6’4" 250. He would probably look like Bill Clinton, who is about 6’2" 230. Or Al Gore. . .big, burly men.

We’re not talking about John Candy.

100

In college I had one buddy - nicest guy in the world most of the time, but when he got enough beer in him and was in a certain mood, his idea of great fun was to start fights in bars. Would go from mellow to rage in an instant.

Not a huge guy - maybe 5’9", 170#. But he’s the only guy I ever knew who had true KO power - I personally saw him put guys down with 1 punch on 3 occasions, and heard of many more instances. On one occasion, in a redneck bar where use college kids were clearly not welcome, he intentionally picked the biggest redneck, and put him down. Going out drinking with him could be a truly terrifying experience.

In my years of training/sparring/competing, I only knocked a guy out once, with a right hook through headgear. And my strength as a fighter was striking. Tho I punched guys down on other occasions, I freely admit that they all involved the other guy slipping or otherwise losing his balance - or in one case, a fatigued poorly conditioned opponent in the 3d round.

What about old men? My buddy runs a school, trains NHB fighters, and is over 300#. He is tight with Steve Golden, who by his own admission, is very small old man. Once when he was hosting him for a seminar, Steve was staying at his house and training with him. One evening in a parking lot he asked my buddy and one of his top fighters to come at him all out. According to my buddy, as soon as they moved towards him Steve took one of them down with a shot to the throat, and the other with a punch to the groin. Steve asked them to try again, at which point my buddy and his student in a frame of mind that the weren’t holding anything back - same result.

Another friend described training with Ted Wong, again, a very small very old man. He described Ted telling him “Now I am going to hit you in the face with a right straight punch. Stop me.” After Ted hit him in the face 8 or so times, my buddy had had enough.

Sure, these guys are exceptional. But size and strength aren’t everything.

When I trained with Jessie Glover I had no illusions about who would best whom. Of course, although he was an old guy, he was still built like a friggin bull!

Also had the pleasure of training with Diana Inosanto on a couple of occasions. If you guys think she would have any trouble taking on a non-fighter of any size - as well as many many fighters, well, I heartily disagree. Note that at the time I trained with her, I was in the best shape of my life and had been fighting for several years. Not that I was any great shakes as far as fighters go, but I was far from a couch potato.