A few blocks from my house there is a “T” intersection where a smaller road meets a larger one. Traffic is regulated by a stop light. Since the sightlines to the left are blocked by a retaining wall, there is no turn on red from the smaller road. As of yesterday, the smaller road also has a stop sign! What does this mean? Do I have to stop on green? Has anyone ever seen this before?
It sounds like a goof if you ask me, but since you could conceivably get a ticket for running a stop sign by not stopping at it even when the light is green, I’d stop. I’d also alert the local department of screw ups, or whatever it might be called in MD. In DC we have a special number to call whenever we see missing, improper or conflicting signs.
I used to live in fashionable downtown Hyattsville… I’d be interested to know where that intersection is.
Note that I’m Norwegian, so I’m talking about Norwegian law, but IIRC a traffic light “outranks” a sign, like a Policeman directing traffic can tell you to stop even if there’s a green light. Maybe they’re planning to take the light down? Call and ask.
Attrayant, it’s the intersection of Oglethorpe and rte 1.
Thay must be either very busy or very lazy; the streets around DuPont circle have more conflicting no parking signs than I’ve seen anywhere.
That was my first thought, too. But since you’re blind to the left, it would rank as one of the most dangerous intersections in the world.
Is it a regular red-yellow-green stop light, or does it flash just red on and off?
If it flashes red, then technically the light is a stop sign (flashing red = full stop, flashing yellow = proceed with caution.)
If this is the case, maybe they’re planning on removing the light soon.
Nope, it’s a good old-fashioned red-yellow-green light.
In Ohio, where I took Driver’s Ed, in this situation the light would control and there is no need to stop on green. Occasionally you’d see these downtown where traffic was only controlled (that is, the lights only worked) some of the time, like during rush hour. The rest of the time the lights were non-functioning and so you had to obey the signs. I have no idea why the traffic engineers, once the light was built, didn’t just leave it on 24/7, but they didn’t, and the signs applied when and only when the lights were not on.
Although I currently hold a Maryland license, I have no idea whether the law is the same there. Do you know any 16-year-olds? They’re the ones to ask.
–Cliffy
I can’t comment on the legalities, but I have an acquaintance who is a city planner, and I asked her about lights that only work some of the time. Not in response to this particular thread, however, so if my memory of a conversation from several months ago is faulty, the errors are mine.
If you have a light that is high traffic at some times of day, and exceptionally low traffic the rest of the time, the light is required to keep things moving during high traffic periods. During low traffic periods, however, the light will always be stopping traffic in some direction. Thus, the occasional car that is travelling in that direction ends up sitting and waiting for the light to change, even though traffic may be clear. A stop and go for a sign is faster and less annoying than stop-wait-go.
The specific case where I’m familiar with part-time lights is outside a couple of different arena parking lots. Very, very busy spots on game nights, but not a much traffic at all outside of game time. They just shut down the lights so the people on the main road don’t have to think about maybe having to stop and so that the few people who come out of the lots don’t wait for light changes.
Around here, part-time lights will either flash red or yellow during their “off” times–a flashing red light is like a stop sign, and you can drive (with caution) through the flashing yellow light. Therefore, there is no need for a separate stop sign. You often see this in small towns in the middle of the night. They don’t ever turn the stoplight completely off. I suppose other states could handle this differently, though.
Why don’t you drive up there in the wee hours of the morning and see if the stoplight is turned off? 
I thought it was general practice that traffic lights that are off become four-way stops (in case they are off due to a power outage). AFAIK, this is the law everywhere I’ve ever lived.
And Tamex, how’d you make the peace sign?
I found out (I think it was in one of the raisinbread threads), that you can change the font face on your posts. If the font is on the reader’s computer, they will see it in that font. For example, [font=Times New Roman]will put this text in Times New Roman[/font]. As I read this, I remembered the “Wingdings” font, which makes little pictures for each letter. The peace sign is a Wingdings capital A. I used font size 6 to make it legible, but not too big. Try it, it’s fun!
I’m just waiting for the first person who says, “WTF is up with that large capital A in your sig?”
Well, I’m no legal traffic scholar, but if you start with the following definitions:
‘STOP’ (on the sign) and the red light both mean stop. I.e. do not move forward for a moment (in the case of the sign) or until you have the right of way (the light).
green light = you have the right of way, which is not the same as ‘Go’.
Interpretation: red light has precedence over sign, sign has precedence over green (or yellow) light.
…Sounds a bit impractical…
When a traffic light is out of order “normal” traffic rules apply (yielding to the right and so on), so I think the more logical explanation is that you follow the light unless it’s out:
*If someone is directing traffic, they have precedence no matter what the lights or signs say. If a cop tells you to drive, you don’t stop because the light is red.
*If nobody’s directing traffic, but there’s a light, the light has precedence no matter what signs say. If the light is red you don’t drive even if there’s a sign giving you right of way, and if it’s green you don’t stop for a stop sign.
*If nobody’s directing traffic and there’s no light, signs and road markings (like zebra crossings, yield triangle things, this-lane-is-for-traffic-to-the-right arrows) have precedence. If there’s a right of way sign, it doesn’t matter who comes from the right. If there is a double arrow in the left lane pointing left and forward, forget the rule about driving on the left if you’re going left, and on the right if you’re going forward or right.
*If there are no signs either, you follow the general rules about yielding for people from the right etc.
I was thinking about this some more, and I remembered that part-time lights (those that are switched to blinking red or yellow) are actually quite rare around here these days with the advent of traffic light sensors. Usually, the case is that a smaller street is meeting up with a much larger street or highway. The larger street’s light stays green most of the time, and only switches when someone drives up to the smaller street and trips the sensor. Then, the light on the main street will turn from green to yellow to red, and then the light on the small street turns green and traffic there can go. It does mean that traffic on the small street has to wait a while, though.
I have seen traffic light poles with folded-up stop signs (half a grey octagon) on them occasionally. I assume that the cops can unfold them in an emergency, such as a power outage or when someone’s working on the light, in order to remind people that without the lights, it is in fact a four-way stop.
I tried to Google Maryland’s traffic laws and had no luck.
I can’t imagine any traffic engineer could dare assume this to be the case. If a driver sees a green light, the TE can’t expect him/her to be looking for conflicting signs or lights. The way had better be safe if the light is green.
Having the light and sign is a traffic hazard all by itself. It’s not hard to imagine a driver planning to proceed on the green, seeing the stop sign and slamming on the brakes. And promptly getting rear-ended by the driver behind him who’s only looking at the light.
B <-- Wingdings B (not sure what it is, though).
My interpretation of precedence is based upon the definitions I proposed (and will admit, may not be LEGAL definitions). That is, Red & ‘STOP’ mean no right-of-way AND stop, green does not mean go; it only grants right-of-way relative to traffic in the cross path.
A person approaching a STOP sign intersection but does not face the sign has the right-of-way through the intersection and is not obligated to stop. However the absence of the sign can’t be legally construed as an order to proceed or “go” in the same way that a STOP sign (and red light) suspend R-O-W AND order an action (stoppage).
Consider a truck with a trailer house in tow that stops at a sign until determining the cross way is clear and proceeds on assumed R-O-W. Upon advance, the truck stalls and completely blocks the intersection. A car then approaches in the cross direction. Because of the absence of a STOP sign in the cross path, the car has the right-of-way, but certainly is not directed to ‘go’ (in the same way that STOP and red are directives), because doing so would endanger life and property.
I agree that in practice stopping for a sign with a green light shining creates a hazardous situation. By the way, in almost every case, the “rear-ender” is at fault.
I can imagine four reasons for the situation described in the OP. One is that the TE wants traffic with the green light to slow and temporarily stop as it passes through and make a conscious effort to establish R-O-W because of the visual obstruction described in the OP. This doesn’t seem reasonable, unless the TE is either downright stupid about practicalities or is an ornery bastard trying to mess with people. A second is that the governing person or board believes people with a green light will run the sign and can be charged a fine. A third is that the installation crew goofed. (There is a 2-STOP intersection near my house where the cross walks and stop stripes are painted on the street with the R-O-W, not on the street with the signs.) A fourth reason is that the County or City Commissioner have a friend or relative in the traffic control device supply business.
B
It appears to be the “OK” sign. It also seems to be close to the American Sign Language sign for the letter “F.”
Ooh, evil scheme.
Except that you are, I still believe, supposed to ignore the sign if there’s a light…
A fifth is that you’re supposed to do what the light says, but if the light’s out <small>(either malfunctioning or they’re not going to keep it on all the time)</small> traffic from the smaller road should be extra careful - because people driving on the main road are used to there not being any traffic from the smaller road, and cars coming from the smaller road are hard to see. So, there’s a sign.
Been any fenderbenders there lately?
(Oops, wrong tag. )