Trailering

Factual Questions
1

Can someone – anyone – tell me what type of information I should have when trying to decide if/how to tow a 1973 Pontiac Grandville from Las Vegas to Detroit? Looking at the tow vehicle – my Ford Expedition – it looks like the worst-case loads are 12,000 lbs GCWR and 6,400 trailer weight (it’s a 5.4L, don’t know the axle ratio, and I have 18" tires versus the 16" and 17" listed in the manual, heavy duty tow package, class iii, electronic brake controller). I can’t seem to find any information on what the Grandville weighs, but I imagine that even with a trailer I’m at less than 6,400 lbs and fully loaded the truck and trailer and car will be less than 12,000 lbs (that’s the purpose of GCWR, right?). In any case, yes, I’ll get the full weight before I attempt anything - I’m just in the planning stage.

So do I need electric brakes? The owner's manual, though, doesn't say under which circumstances I would need something with electric brakes. Is there any general rule of thumb as to when I'd require electric brakes or not? Or are they just a convenience thing?

A dolly or a full trailer? I'd rather not add the extra weight of a full trailer, but maybe I'm underestimating what this huge friggin' truck can pull. With a dolly, I know enough to disconnect the Pontiac's driveshaft.

Finally, *any idea* where I can rent this? U-Haul says I can't pull this vehicle with their equipment. Ryder says if it's not on their list that only goes back to 1986 I can't pull it. Herz-Penske says only if I rent a truck. So… maybe I can lie about what I'm pulling (my liability and responsibility and guilty conscience) if I know the equipment is good enough, or I could ::gulp:: buy a decent used dolly/trailer from a trailer place and attempt to sell it when I get to Detroit… but like a first time car buyer, I'd hate to get hoodwinked.

Any advice? I'm posting this in GQ because there are factual answers to the first part. Once that's done, we could ask a mod to move the thread for the "advice" portion… thanks, y'all.
2

In the classic GQ tradition of “responding to the question but not answering it”…

Have you gotten quotes from car transport companies?

3

I would certainly consider electric brakes with a load of that weight considering part of your trip brings you over the Rockies. I’m not sure If I’d use a dolly over the Rockies, but I’m sure you would be fine with a dolly through Kansas.

4

Evidently those RV owners who tow cars behind their Winnebagos have been responsible for engendering a certain amount of information on towing cars.

For example.
http://www.rvknowhow.com/dinghy.html
http://www.rvliving.net/Tow%20Vehicles.htmv
http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/dl648/dl648pt11.htm
http://www.rvlifemag.com/file332/rvtip332.html
http://www.woodalls.com/cforum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/16061476/page/1.cfm
FW it’s all W.

5

Ahh… yeah. If those big things with GM and Ford chassis and normal V8’s can haul their own weight plus a big vehicle, then I guess I’m being overly cautious. RV boards is an approach I didn’t consider searching for, and it gave me an even better idea – tow bar rather than dolly or trailer. I’ll try to do some more research later.

Huh?

Metacom, yeah, some casual asking got me that bargain basement price of $2400. Since I’m driving anyway and I doubt the car is worth that much, it seems kind of steep. A trailer could cost about $2400, and then I can sell it in Michigan. Actually I could probably do with a trailer in Michigan for Home Depot runs…

6

Not true. Your looking at it from a power standpoint, but you also need to consider stability and braking.

A light tow vehicle with a heavy load is problematic from those standpoints.

Stability wise, you have a tail wagging the dog concern. The tug needs to serve as a fairly solid anchor to keep the trailer pointed in the direction of travel. Loading the trailer tounge light, as people with light tugs are prone to do, is asking for trouble. If your tug is on the light side, you need more toungue weight, which makes the trailer more inherantly stable, so it relies less on the tug for stability.

The RV’s have heavilly loaded rear axles, which makes the tires want to stay planted, a plus for stability. BUT, they also typically have enormous rear overhangs, which gives the trailer a huge amount of leverage, so your SUV, with nominal rear overhang is a plus.

Braking: If you don’t have trailer brakes, then the tug has to stop the combined mass, but it does not have the weight of the trailer contributing to the normal force of the tires on the road. Without brakes on the trailer, you want the tug to weigh at least twice the trailer weight, and 4X would be preferable.

When braking, some of the trailers weight is transfered to the hitch, which loads the rear tug tires more, but lightens the front tug tires. The tug is designed so that the strongest brakes are in the front, because absent a trailer, this has the most weight when braking. The result is that it is VERY easy to skid the tug front wheels, and stopping distances will be markedly increased. The only upside to the situation is that the rear tug wheels are unlikely to lock, so the trailer remains stable and jack-knifing is usually not a problem. Weight transfer hitches (spring bars) can help a lot with this, and also level the tug.

So trailer brakes are a good thing. What kind:

Surge brakes: No controller to install, compensate automatically for loaded vs. unloaded trailer. Can cause trouble when backing is required. Rarely (IME) bled properly on instalation, which can limit effectivness. Also may overheat on steep mountain downgrades where engine braking would be preferable. No help if a sway situation develops.

Electric brakes: Needs a controller. Will need to be adjusted or defeated when trailer is unloaded. Will allow you to do more then squeeze the wheel and pray if you get a sway started.

7

Damn. I can’t find exact weights for my Grandville. Looking at a comparable Bonneville of the same year indicates it weighs 4300 pounds. The limit for the U-Haul trailer is 4000 pounds. Should I expect that by being 300 pounds over I’m in an acceptable margin of safety?

Also, it looks like their trailers have something called “surge brakes” rather than electric brakes. Any ideas or opinions on these?

Again, I could purchase a suitable car hauler and then sell it when I get back. Any idea what kind of depreciation hit I’d take? I assume I’d have to buy a new one, because there’s not an easy way to determine the limits and weights on a used trailer, right? Or would their limits be stamped onto the unit somewhere?

8

And of course, I’ve read and understood Kevbo’s explanation of the brakes, but I mean in reference to the weight I want to pull.

9

“For what all those proffered hits on RVs towing itty-bitty cars are worth–it may not be exactly applicable to your situation, as you aren’t proposing to tow a Honda Civic with a city bus. But I just thought I’d throw it out there, for what it’s all worth.”

10

Like others on the board have, said it’s not the starting it’s the stopping.

I have a similar set up with my 2000 expedition and I have hauled cars, concrete blocks and tractors on my heavy duty 16 foot trailer with electric brakes.

I also so have a ford f350 dually so I understand the more you need to pull the more you need to weight.

That being said most of my trips with the expedition were short hauls with no problems but even doing short hauls I had to have the transmission replaced at 80,000 miles.

If you have a good size trailer with electric brakes you should not have a problem but understand that the more time you spend on the road the more likely you are to become involved in an emergency situation where your vehicles lesser weight could come into play.

I would make sure I had quite a bit of insurance just in case

11

Thanks. I was trying to figure out “FW it’s all W” and it confused me, which in this thread is apparantly easy to do. :slight_smile:
So, it looks like I’m looking at 5300 lbs for a trailer and car. The Expedition looks like it’s 5300 lbs or so, plus load, so now I’m neutrally bouyant or something. Should I just forget this?

12

I pulled trailers but never put that much thought into the weights, usually a hook up and go deal. Not the smartest thing but, I’ve got some great stories. No cites just experience.

My 2 cents, use electric brakes. The newer electronic ones are self adjusting, where have they been all my life? My 2004 Chevy came with all the wiring under the dash, plug in and I was all set. Look in your owners manual.

This summer a guy I work with was going to go a few states away to pick up a car and a dolly and bring it home. Looking into the prices he said no way, he’d lose his ass on the money.

You really want a full trailer, I’d never try the mountains with a dolly with the truck and trailer being so evenly weighted. Hell, sell the Expedition and get a four door duelly. A BIG truck, you know you want to.

13

Explain to us again why you don’t just pay a car delivery service to either drive or ship the thing for you?

14

I can give you 2400 good reasons – one dollar per reason.

15

Do you have a sentimental attachment to this car? Why not just sell it where you are and buy something else when you get there?

16

Well, it’s a cherry 1973 Grandville. Not worth a cent anywhere in the world, but it would cost me a fortune to buy another one and restore to this condition. If it were a 50’s Bellaire or something fancy I wouldn’t hesitate to have it shipped. I do have alternatives, like (1) having it shipped or (2) flying out and driving it or (3) buying a different one or (4) trailering this one. So if I acn get the information to trailer it, then I will. If not, I’ll use one of the alternatives. All told, I am appreciative of all of the answers, and I hope they provide insight for future searchers beyond my particular situation.

17

IMHO.

That’s a lot of car to tow over the Rockies. Plus trailer. With an Expedition. If you do, make sure you have the electric brakes.

Do you trust the car? Do you think it could make it on it’s own? How’s the running gear. Bearings, transmission and such.

Run the numbers.

2000 miles. Say $400 in gas. (wow how things have changed).

One way ticket from Detroit to Vegas? $200-300.

Two hotel rooms for a three day drive $200

Traveling money. $200.

A week away from your new digs. Know way to calculate that from here.

Can the car make a 2000 mile trip? That’s the real unknown.

It’s fall now, so temperature should not be too much of a problem. And snow, well, real snow is a bit away.

I’d consider driving it if I trusted the car and had the time. It might be fun.

18

Oh.

[Emily Latella]
Never mind…
[/Emily Latella]

All the sites I looked at wouldn’t give you a quote without you give them your e-mail addy, so I dint know. Ignore me.

19

Well… for that very reason I only have the one quote, I’ll admit. Why the hell can’t anyone give a quote without all the personal information? I can get a friggin insurance quote without all of that for crying out loud!

20

Just guessing that insurance companies have the volume, so they don’t need to pin down individuals and call-back on them to see if they’re going to be (gasp!) an actual customer.