Traitors and Fools

[Milossarian]

I’d just like to note that this notion:

**Here’s the thing, though. Were the situation reversed, I believe we would still be holding the Chinese soldiers pending a formal apology from the Chinese government.

**
… strikes me as quite silly.

And I’d also like jab1 to explain how we would stop other countries from monitoring our radio transmissions off of our coasts, in international waters/airspace.

And, to keep this from going too Great-Debatish, somebody fuck a lemur while you’re at it.

[Spiritus_Mundi]

Bring 'em home and then stop spying on other countries! (By the same token, stop other countries from spying on us.)

Counterintelligence is a practical impossibility without intelligence.

Unless, of course, Max and 99 can fit the whole country into their cone of silence.

[andros]

This also annoyed me. Like being gay will make you what you are. Its just as bad as someone stereotyping negatively, albiet with less hostile intent. Haven’t you ever seen Lissener or Hastur andros?

Oh, put a fucking sock in it, Asmodean. Being gay does not define one’s political convictions. Being a part of a historically oppressed minority, however, would seem to me to preempt “love it or leave it.” Sorry, pally, but I heard enough of “let’s ship all the gays/blacks/jews/commies off to a desert island” while I lived in Bumfuck, North Carolina, thankewverymuch.
Lemur:

I do not feel that the intelligence gathering the US does is wrong, morally or otherwise.

I could make an argument that it’s wrong to assert that we have a right to unfettered “spying” and no one else does.

But that’s neither here nor there.

We prevent spy/reconaissance planes from spying on us by intercepting the planes and jamming their receivers, not by ramming them, forcing them to crash, and holding them prisoner. I have no idea where people get the idea that the US would be shooting down the spy planes of other countries and arresting the pilots. This DOES NOT HAPPEN.

As near as I can tell, there is no conclusive evidence determining which plane rammed the other. The only plane that crashed was the Chinese fighter. Our boys and girls landed on Chinese soil. No one has shot down anyone else. No one has arrested anyone else. And I have not suggested anything like your last two sentences.

Now that the spin has slowed a little . . . I do not support the Chinese actions. The fighter pilot, under orders or not, was flying in an unsafe manner. I would much have preferred our soldiers had been released immediately. They are being used now as pawns in a diplomatic game. It sucks. It sucks a lot, especially because I have friends who very easily could have been on that plane.

And how was goboy not supporting freedom of expression? All he was doing is telling them that they were using their constitutionally guaranteed right to free speech in a particularly bone-headed and offensive way. See, he was using HIS freedom of speech to argue that other people were saying stupid things. What’s wrong with that?

I’m not pissing on anyone for speaking his mind. I simply do not agree that “bone-headed and offensive” warrants a demand to leave the country, or accusations of treason. IMO, supporting the right to free expression means accepting the fact that people will have opinions contrary to mine. And calling for someone to leave the country because I do not agree with their views is not a choice I would make.
Milo:

[the idea that we would detain Chinese intel specialists if they landed on US soil] … strikes me as quite silly.

In what way?

somebody fuck a lemur while you’re at it.

Somehow I don’t think Lemur866 would appreciate that. At least not from me . . .

[tradesilicon]

Nicely stated, goboy. I am a strong supporter of our right to critisize our government, so I appreciate the balance you strike in your OP.

The approach we should take is to have complete support for the actions of our Governemnt while they work to bring our service people home, period. Once that is accomplished, by all means, tear those bureaurcats to bits. Bush included. But I definately agree that those who would insist that our Government is evil and we owe China an apology to should first get an education. The Gang that runs China should apoligize to the citizens of that country for the attrocities they have committed, if we are to talk apologies.

[jab1]

*Originally posted by Lemur866 *
**Jab, what about listening to someone’s RADIO conversation?

When you broadcast radio signals, you lose the right to have them considered private.**

Then encode them. We already encode satellite TV transmissions so only a paid subscriber can receive them. It’s illegal for an unpaid subscriber to build his own decoder. And yet it’s legal for the government to do the equivalent?

And what about reporters who pry into the private affairs of business who go about their private routines of cheating, gouging and polluting?

American journalists investigating American businesses (or foreign businesses who trade with us) is perfectly acceptable to me because businesses are required to conform with American laws. But I’m talking about the American government spying on a foreign government. Foreign governments within their own borders are not subject to American laws. Therefore, we have no right to spy on them.

No, it is perfectly moral to both spy on others and prevent ourselves from being spied on.

Bullshit. You’re a goddamn hypocrite. It’s the same as saying “It’s perfectly moral for me to beat you to a bloody pulp and stop you from beating me to a bloody pulp. Why? 'Cuz I’m stronger than you, that’s why!”

I still don’t get it.

I’m not surprised. Logic doesn’t seem to be your strong suit.

[China_Guy]

Hey Goboy, were you referring to me as one of the three traitors and fools? Just curious, if you were I might actually have to reply. Personally, I thought my attempts to explain Chinese thinking and their point of view would be considered freedom of speech rather than traitorous. So, please clarify.

Aside from that, China bashers in general would really strengthen their hand by learning something about China, Taiwan, Asian politics, and global economics and then going at it instead of regurgitating some lame American media spoon fed crapola. I would love to get into a pit fight with someone coming from your point of view but that actually knew what they were talking about.

Lord knows there’s plenty to bash China about, and you can start with my mother in law

[gobear]

china Guy, absolutely no way was I talking about you!
You posted accurate information and you know very much what you’re talking about. Having lived in Korea for six years (the Korean attitude to apologies is identical to that of the Chinese), I thought your analysis of the incident was insightful and spot on. I was referring, if you’ll check the OP, to Rjung, Needs2Know, and Jab1. All three of them, but especially N2K, posted knee-jerk anti-USA and anti-military posts without having all of the facts.

As I pointed out in one of the threads, I’ve been to China, I dig the country, the culture, and the people, but I loathe the Chinese government. China-bashing was in no sense the intention of this thread. My intent was to bash posters who seem to think that being globally-minded means believing that the US is always wrong.

[China_Guy]

Hey dude, just checking first before flying off the handle.

Generally, the Chinese government ain’t my favorite either, but have you ever dealt with the INS, State Department or IRS? My dealings with the CHinese IRS have been a lot more pleasant and dare I say professional than the American kind.