Is anyone else remembering SNL’s “Pat”?
I have encountered a person who actually did get asked (her) sex.
Even the shoulder/hip width test was useless.
she wore men’s shirts (gas station pump jockey) and jeans, so the “which way does the top button?” didn’t work.
Short of handing them a book and seeing how they carry it, legitimate questions can exist.
Seems to me to be like feminist criticism of transgered.
Academically interesting and theoretically valid but in the real world a stupid and counterproductive waste of time when there are much much much bigger battles to fight.
What would the reason be for those legitimate questions? “I don’t know how to treat you if I don’t know whether you’re male or female”?
That’s a really good explanation.
I sort of agree, because this is how I feel sometimes. In the lesbian community (of which I am part) there seems, to me, to be too strong a trend towards saying that if you don’t like make-up and heels, etc, even now and then, then you’re not just a woman who doesn’t like make-up and heels, you’re trans. I reject that. Being trans is a lot deeper than that. Men can wear make-up and women can eschew heels; those are just clothes, not the person.
But you have to take into account what Emiliana said above. If you were a woman who looked very much like a man, and had in fact gone through male puberty, wouldn’t you have to make extra efforts if you wanted people to recognise that you were female?
For you it’s not important that people recognise that you’re female, but for a lot of people it is, and it depends on the context. Online, people usually assume I’m male (and straight), but that doesn’t bother me because the only things it affects are occasional discussions and they can easily be corrected. If I were constantly called Mr in real life, or told I was in the wrong changing room at swimming, etc, then it could be more of a problem. Especially if they didn’t talk me to directly but called in the staff to make me leave.
And these days a lot of cis women do dress in ways that are indistinguishable from men. I do in the winter (summer not so much - dresses are more practical). So dressing as an ordinary woman can, for some transwomen who’ve gone through puberty and out the other side before transitioning, would, if they dressed like ordinary women, just make people assume they were a man.
Some trans people I know do dress very gender-neutral, actually, even the older ones. Especially when just with friends or when they’ve been out for a long time. It’s the initial phase where you dress more in high heels and so on in all circumstances; after that it’s more where you encounter a lot of strangers, like in many jobs, and otherwise you do like most women and put on a bit of lipstick (if that) and choose a top that has no sleeves and a pretty flower design, nothing elaborate.
The trans people you notice are more likely to be the people who transitioned later so are signifying their gender via their clothes because their bodies won’t do it for them. You probably see them on your commute or something because office attire is very gender-conformative. You are less likely to notice the others, or in other situations, and there are lots of them.
You are seriously missing the point, despite many trying to explain it to you.
Transgender women are trying to “pass” out of survival. If we don’t “pass” into the other side of the gender binary, we risk losing our jobs, being harassed daily in public, having the stares and snickers and people stopping and gaping with their mouth open like a bloody basking shark. We risk the taunting, the jokes, the insults, the thrown food, and if we go to the restroom we risk causing a scene and being insulted, evicted from the premises, and in many jurisdictions arrested for “disturbing the peace.” Where the transgender person may end up finding themselves in full female presentation, in a shared male holding cell. EVEN IF they have all fully legal IDs and a vagina. Don’t think it doesn’t happen.
Passing is life, at this point in society.
Times when a butch woman faces that panoply of threats are vanishingly rare. It happens, but it’s rare.
Most transgender women would be very happy to dress androgynously in blue jeans, flats, and a polo shirt without makeup. And when our society gets to the point where one can be androgynous 24/7 and not be forced to exist on one side of the gender binary, then a lot of folks will be very happy.
I can testify that my career probably would have been lost if I had chosen to present androgynously. My clientele, while they were very supporting of my transition (amazingly so, in fact) are also socially conservative enough such that appearing as a butch woman or (worse) feminine man would have resulted in a much, much poorer reaction with my clients and co-workers. I almost certainly would have lost my career, or else been relegated to a position where I did not work with clients again - in effect, a demotion.
The world isn’t fair, it’s an oblate spheroid.
The point, it has been missed.
I’m not missing any point; I am making a different point.
When I was in college, one of the main events on the fall social calendar each year was the drag show put on by the Society of Women Engineers. I never attended, but many of my friends and classmates did. No doubt many thought they were being progressive and hip, showing off their high level of tolerance and respect for diversity by doing so.
Then, in the blink of an eye, the exact same sort of event has become “contemptuous” and “devaluing” and “objectifying” and so forth. That’s one of the reasons why I no longer bother trying to obey the dictates of the liberal elite any more. They change so often that I can’t keep up with it. What’s progressive on Monday is oppressive on Tuesday, and who knows whether it will be good or bad on Wednesday, Thursday, or Friday.
That said, while I don’t agree with everything AnaMen has said, I do agree with this:
I couldn’t have said it any better myself.
I am a woman, and while I may upon occasion get harassed, it’s generally not the type of potential violence that a non-passing transwoman faces. So, not quite the same.
Yeah, violence towards women, that’s not a thing. :rolleyes:
Not even remotely close to what she said.
We all face “potential violence” of all “types.”
Who could possibly be exempt?
Are you pretending to be unaware of the difference in violence victimization rates between transgender and cisgender women, or are you actually ignorant of the difference in rates?
No doubt college students of the 1920’s who did blackface shows thought they were being ever-so progressive, you know honoring all those Pullman porters, gas pumpers, cooks, maids, and shoeshine boys they encountered everyday.
It doesn’t mean that your third-hand account of an SWE event you never actually attended had bad intentions at all. It means times changed, and the current SWE (of which I happen to be a member, BTW) changed as well.
I say, it hasn’t seemed like that to my people, who only in the last 5 years of the last 63 years since Jorgensen’s secret was leaked to the press have started to make any headway on human rights. So it’s not quite a blink of an eye, unless your name is Methuselah or Elrond.
I know! Just like this whole Netflix thing. And when did phones become “smart,” anyhow? And self-parking cars? Holy shit, what’s up with that?
Yes, there’s a Liberal Cabal who dictate these things to you. I myself am running for Trans Archbishop (Midwest Archdiocese) this fall, and I hope that I can count on your vote…?
Yes, it’s exactly like that.
So, ever gotten your ass beaten down for not looking quite womanly enough? I mean, we all face that sort of thing every day, right? I never have, but I could find some transwomen easily enough who have. Una, I am sure, knows a sorrowful number of transwomen who didn’t pass well enough.
Una, you have my vote, Your Transgender Grace.
I don’t get drag. I have seen it once or twice, and asked my (gay) friends what the point was. I still don’t get it. I didn’t find it especially offensive as a woman, though.
I’m not sure. Yes, they are actors. But most are also gay men. Despite not “getting” drag (in that I don’t find it funny), I think it is an expression of gender non-conformity that people want to engage in because they don’t neatly fit the gender binary. It’s just a different place on the spectrum than transwomen.
yes, this is definitely confusing to cis people who aren’t close to the trans community. Drag queens on “sex in the city” calling themselves “tranny” doesn’t help anyone understand why the term can be offensive and hurtful, either.
I have seen non-haters confused by drag, and specifically not understanding how it differs from being transgender. And I have seen haters use drag as ammunition. But I think that drag, like other expressions of gender-non-conformity, is valid in itself. I think we can keep a space for it. And haters gonna hate. They will find another excuse. Educating the non-haters takes time, but I think a lot of progress has been made and more will be made.
Literally? No. But I am a woman who has been accused of not being “feminine enough”, (despite a feminine body shape) and I’ve had several unpleasant incidents as a result, including one that threatened serous violence.
The first time I read your post, I misread it that way, too. When I quoted it to reply, I read it more carefully, and realized you didn’t mean to include me, or other people who don’t use “tranny” to offend. But I was a little upset the first time I read it, too.
You are completely missing the point. And it’s not a hard point to grasp.
When you are being brutally attacked, does the “reason” matter? Is it usually given?
Women are attacked at a high enough rate that we are told to avoid dressing in certain ways in order to “stay safe” and are cautioned against going anywhere alone. If we are attacked, we are blamed, for wearing the wrong thing or being in the wrong place.
The “logic” that trans women are being attacked because they didn’t wear enough lipstick to “pass” makes no sense anyway. If being attacked is such a huge concern, wear a sweatshirt, jeans, and sneakers and “pass” as a man, an option not open to most women.