That’s also true. However, what I’m trying to get at is that there are crossdressers who are gay or straight, but not trans, (See the article or for example, British comedian Eddie Izzard) but that some of those feel a real “compulsion”, a “need” so to speak, to dress in traditional female clothing, wear make-up etc. Enough of a need that they would risk a relationship for example, because they feel this is an essential side of themselves that they are expressing, not just an act for fun or money. No, I don’t think they have it as hard as a trans person. But I do feel that it seems unfair to ask them to repress it.
And look at all the women in that thread who are minimal make-up on a daily basis - so… dress but no heels as an analogy. When it comes to corporate dress codes it wasn’t even a matter of “just wear a dress”, even if not specified there was an unwritten rule about a particular SORT of dress.
The problem is NOT the women who enjoy that sort of dress-up, it’s the women who either don’t care for it, or would prefer not to do it daily, who feel pressure to do it anyway
The sad truth is that for a lot of women these sorts of things are the difference between a job and being able to pay the bills and dire poverty and homelessness. It’s all very well to say we shouldn’t put up with it, but I’m not going to criticize a woman who feels it’s necessary to conform to a work-world standard in order to keep a roof over her head. Or, in the case of a transwoman, diminish the chances of being physically assaulted or denied proper medical care.
Izzard isn’t a good example. He’s on record as being at the very least genderquestioning/genderqueer, and has claimed to be trans but did not transition due to fear of screwing up his career.
For those for whom it is an important part of their identity I agree, asking them to repress it would be unfair. However, there is a marked difference between a man dressing as a woman and attending a social function, or giving a musical or stage performance, and someone dressing in drag and using it as an excuse to do or say things that are hurtful and offensive to others. That doesn’t mean all drag comedy is inherently bad, but some of it can indeed descend to the level of blackface shows.
Oh, I know… It wasn’t so much a matter of looking “feminine” as it was an attempt to translate corporate menswear into a female equivalent. To be fair, men typically had very strict rules at such places as well, including hair length (mustn’t touch the collar), facial hair (maybe you could squeak by with a closely trimmed beard, but otherwise, none), shoe type (leather soles only), etc. The womens’ requirements were more painful and carried a greater risk for physical damage, but there was an assumed air that women were permitted such careers only by the good graces of the males who really “belonged” there, so few dared kick up a fuss.
But that pressure wouldn’t exist if no one else was doing it. No one is the problem per se, but the situation is problematic.
I don’t think most women are a pair of heels and a tube of eyeliner away from homelessness though. If one is capable of holding down a corporate job, typically one would have some marketable skills that would translate to a career that pays a living wage and does not require dresses, heels, and makeup. It does limit the options though, without a doubt, and I’m not criticizing individuals who succumb to the pressure or even those that feel no pressure and love putting on these outfits. We are probably all contributing to someone else’s problems somehow. Such is life.
To get back to the original topic, I find it somewhat disheartening and hypocritical when someone complains that their group is oppressed, gains some status and acceptance, then turns around and tries to oppress someone else. Drag queens are living their lives as they see fit and if someone wants their own choices to be respected even by people who do not fully understand them, they ought to respect everyone else’s right to the same.
Straight married guy here so if you want to ignore what I say I won’t be offended. I’m a supporter of the GLBT community but not a vested member.
Seriously - get some scientist you trust to move to Pittsburgh, come to OUTrageous Bingo a lot, and get to know the guy who arranges the half-time performers. Follow him around to some of the various shows and talk to people. And give them time to get to know you before you expect answers to any questions. Some of these people have been hurt badly and caught by surprise even in GLBT friendly/controlled situations - they can be a little defensive until they get used to you. That could be the study right there
I have been surprised by just how diverse that segment of the community (“drag queens”) is. Some are gay men doing it basically as a lark or a way to make some extra money. Some are transgender trying to find ways to pay the bills insurance doesn’t cover, some are basic transvestites who enjoy spending time in women’s clothing but have no desire to have their gender changed, some are straight men just playing a part but around the places I’ve been most aren’t - but all seem to have a love for what they do as an art form. Some go way over the top, the kind of stereotype images mentioned upthread, and basically walk in as men and change into their costumes and change back before leaving. For some it isn’t really a costume - they walk in as women and walk out the same way.
And then we have the “Drag Kings” - women dressed and performing as men. Smaller population but it looks to be growing. There I’ve had no contact/conversations but I would expect them to be all over the spectrum as well.
All in all, I have an understanding why some transgender folk have issues with some of the performers and performances. I’ve seen some that made everyone except the performer himself cringe. But for a movement that hopes to find acceptance for diversity in society as a whole? We need to give them a chance and some understanding if we can. At least IMHO.
As a feminist, I’ve been liking it to a minstrel show for years. Offensive humor can be funny (there is something weirdly wonderful about South Park), but lets not pretend like some people haven’t been bringing this issue up for years regarding ciswomen. And I’m sure its no better for trans women.
For trans women though, it goes beyond being a reflection of general societal objectification and oppression of women. For one thing, most people are familiar with the concept of women, but may not be well-informed about trans women in particular and lump drag queens, trans women, transvestites, etc. together, not understanding that they are not different names for the same thing.
It’s a judgement call you have to make with every situation. I’m trying to be more general, and in my experience it doesn’t work well because of the hip-shoulder ratio. For example, you can create a better hip-shoulder ratio in skirts than you can with jeans.
Okay, I didn’t know that.
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For those for whom it is an important part of their identity I agree, asking them to repress it would be unfair. However, there is a marked difference between a man dressing as a woman and attending a social function, or giving a musical or stage performance, and someone dressing in drag and using it as an excuse to do or say things that are hurtful and offensive to others. That doesn’t mean all drag comedy is inherently bad, but some of it can indeed descend to the level of blackface shows.
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Yes, I agree the latter is bad, no argument.
I just wanted to point that there are people who fall between being trans and dressing as a woman (or man) completely for show and/or money. But you got that, I think. 
But the thing is, you and I are women born women. We have female bone structure and faces even before you get down to the genitals. We can dress in a boyish way and still, when someone looks at us properly (or at least from the front) be recognised as women.
Transwomen, especially those who started transition later in life, don’t have all of that. They need the clothing more than born-women do.
Some women who are naturally very androgynous do get shit yelled at them in the street, too, or asked to leave ladies’ toilets, when they’re dressing in an androgynous way. They have the advantage over transwomen that they can, without the burden of transitioning, say “of course I’m a bloody woman!” with a baffled expression, or whatever is your local variation.
Of course transwomen could dress like men to avoid confrontation. I think that’s what most of them have been doing for years so they do understand the idea.
But transwomen tend to have body language that points them out as “other”, either gay, trans or effeminate; that actually puts them at an even higher rate of risk than women. No stats to give - it’s such a small group that I’m not sure they exist - but if you’ve even known an “effeminate” man then you’ll know that they do get bullied at school; it doesn’t end there.
I mean, I definitely agree with what I think you’re saying - that the best way to defy gender norms is to actually defy them. Be a man wearing lipstick, etc. But if you’re on your own, on your way to work, or travelling home from a party alone, or whatever, then you’re going to have to be extremely brave to confront those norms.
Or even at work - try explaining to everyone you meet that you’re challenging gender norms if you’re a man who wears lipstick. Eddie Izzard couldn’t get away with it if he worked at a bank.
Me too. Why do some people think you want drag to fail after you posted this?
I like drag because it’s play. It’s playing with gender and roles and life in general. Unlike blacking up, it’s something that does go both ways - drag kings are less common but they do exist and are quite popular where I live. And in British panto, where the Dame has always been played by a man, the Principal Boy has traditionally been played by a woman. And she is the one who actually gets some romance!
I don’t know if it should survive forever, but it has its place at the moment.
How you dress (or what you look like, for that matter) absolutely affects the attitudes and reactions of intolerant people, by virtue of being different. And not just sociopaths. Enough times, it leads to violence, or profiling, or a long line of other abuses.
You’re merely describing privilege. It’s great to preach these principles while you currently enjoy relative acceptance when it comes to your identity (which others already largely recognize), but for those who do not have this luxury, they’re forced to conform in ways that you do not. It’s not always by choice, but by circumstance. In other words, a trans person must contend with societal norms, as well as gender identity-- the former must be handled, right now, while the latter is an ideal or end-goal they’d probably share with you.
What makes you think I “enjoy acceptance” of any kind?
What are these “privileges” that are to my advantage?
Nobody thinks I’m conforming to any societal norms. I’m not perceived as a huge threat to society, but that’s probably because I am small and female-looking enough that people assume I will be easily subdued if I get out of hand. To call that “privilege” seems kind of a stretch.
Check out the male privileges James St. James, a trans man, took note of after he transitioned: These 25 Examples of Male Privilege from a Trans Guy's Perspective Really Prove the Point - Everyday Feminism
Sign me up for being taken seriously, not being interrupted and getting paid more! Except there is no way I could actually pass for a man, so none of that can be mine. I could pull off pre-pubescent boy, at best, and that would be no use at all.
Yep, people seldom, if ever, doubt that I am a woman. I get to listen to people tell me to “smile!,” I get treated like I probably don’t know what I’m talking about when I speak of repairing things, I get asked to babysit for free, I am judged by the cleanliness of my toilet. I am told I should wear make up, curl my hair, straighten my hair, wear “appropriate” shoes, and questioned about my undergarments. I am even judged for the appearance and behavior of men I am with!
No one needs high-heeled shoes, just as no women ever needed their feet bound, needed whale-bone corsets, or need burkas.
We all get stuff yelled at us in the street. The more “female” one looks, the more yelling there will be. Any person who does not “look” like the gender for whom a restroom has been designated might be asked to leave, trans or not, and anyone can respond that they are a woman, a man, a rhinocerous, whatever. That isn’t some weird privilege non-trans women have for themselves.
But I can’t dress like a man and pass for one, so I have fewer options than most trans women. I was also bullied at school, for not shaving my legs, not wearing a bra, not smiling, etc. Since I went to a school of hypercompetitive sports-lovers, I was even bullied for being unathletic, which you might assume would only happen to boys.
Plenty of non-trans boys are bullied for being effeminate. Plenty of people are bullied for any or no reason.
I can’t work at a bank either, because I won’t wear what I would have to wear. I can’t be a lawyer, I can’t be an executive, I can’t be a lot of things, and other women going along with wearing lipstick, heels, etc. are why. Some people like doing these things and others feel they must, but in the end, the idea that “women do this” and “men do that” is perpetuated and supported by men and women obediently sticking to their assigned sartorial options and behaviors.
Well, for starters, no one questions that you’re a woman.
You see, you are so used to your ciswoman privileges that you don’t see them any more, just like white males are often so used to their privileges they don’t see them.
Everyone born in the USA or just about any first World nation is so “privileged” that anything else pales by comparison.
This is the truth.
And yet… even such privileged people sometimes get shot in the head for no damn good reason by the police, or beaten for using the wrong bathroom. Some are more privileged than others.
The privilege to not have someone not question that I’m a woman?
That is the complete opposite of a privilege. A privilege is something you have, not some abuse you don’t. No one beats me up if I try to drive either–do I have Non-Saudi Woman Privilege?
Like no one can be happy anywhere but the US and Europe?
Wow, leave some Kool-Aid for others.
“Privilege” does not necessarily mean “happiness.” Just because someone experiences privilege does NOT mean that happiness follows.
Just out of curiosity, are you looking for things to disagree with? Because it seems that way in this thread.