The Sun today carries an article about the possibility of male-to-female transexuals being allowed to compete against women athletes in the next Olympics.
This is not a debate about whether an mtf transexual is “really” a woman. The issue as I see it is is it fair for a woman that received male-level doses of testosterone for most of her life to compete against women who haven’t?
I think there’s a good chance that after this rule is put in place, that male-to-female transexuals will completely dominate female athletics. Women who have been females since birth will not be able to compete.
It also wouldn’t suprise me if Olympic Caliber athletes were dedicated enough to their sport that they’d change genders soley because they thought they’d have a better chance at excelling as a female athlete than as a male. It would be difficult to weed out the “true” transsexuals from the “fakers” who don’t truly believe themselves to be the other gender, but are cynically manipulating the system to gain prestige.
No Olympic medal is worth losing that piece of my anatomy! 
I think you’re overestimating the number of MTF transsexual athletes, and underestimating the strength of ingrained gender identities, Blalron.
If my understanding is correct that 1) some transsexuals undergo hormone therapy as part of their treatment, and 2) hormone levels vary naturally from person to person anyway, then couldn’t the difference between natural born female athletes and MTF transsexual athletes be so small that they’re effectively nonexistent?
Because there are so many MTF transsexuals out there, and they’re all so interested in athletics. :rolleyes:
I’m sure there are some transgendered women who are interested in (and good at!) sports, but they must be a pretty small group compared to “natural born” women athletes. I don’t think this will spell the end of women’s sports as we know it.
I don’t think I’ve ever met a male athlete who’d be willing to live as a woman for two years just so he could get to (literally or figuratively) hit from the ladies tee and beat the women at their own games. I think any man who would do such a thing just to “gain prestige” would only have his plan backfire.
In order to qualify to participate in the Olympics, there is a maximum testosterone level. (Both for males and females). It seems to me (sorry no studies to back this up) that if you went through extensive hormone treatment to bring your levels into compliance, it seems like you would lose your natural advantage.
People born genetically male still have a different skeletal frame than female. This can add strength advantages, regardless of hormone therapy.
I can understand that trans-sexuals want to be recognized and respected for who they are, and the Olympics could be a good place for that. But there’s not going to be much respect for a genetically born male who can outrun genetically born women in a 100 meter dash, there will just be resentment.
If a trans-sexual wants to compete in the Olympics and not come off as a jackass, then she should just run with the boys.
On the other hand, there are sports where men don’t have an inherent advantage, and so for those I don’t think there would be much reason to complain about letting trans-sexuals compete with other women. So maybe it just depends on the sport.
Yes, because no big advantage would come from it. Testosterone and estrogen affect people differently and the woman who is affected most by testosterone and least by estrogen would have the biggest advantage.
So, all the fears based on this are pretty much groundless.
Thanks, and forgive my ignorance, I don’t have any medical background knowledge of this!
Would there be an issue though, as Headcoat notes, that someone who has lived for x decades as a man would generally have a larger frame and bigger muscle mass than a woman? Or, when the mtf person began taking their female hormone treatment, would this muscle mass diminish?
I agree that it’s somewhat of a hypothetical, because I doubt there are that many mtf transexuals planning to get into Olympic sport.
It strikes me as a sort of “reverse disability” situation. It would seem unfair if transexuals couldn’t compete at any level, but the issue is are they unfairly advantaged by birth-gender?
This was discussed to death here on the Boards about two months ago when the IOC’s recommendation first broke the news.
I can attest that you lose a lot of strength on hormone replacement therapy. It would be very difficult to maintain typical masculine musculature, especially post-op, without using prohibited steroids (which would also, incidentially, interfere with HRT), and in fact most male-to-female transsexuals are even worse off than their born female counterparts at most athletic activities because of how stressful HRT is. In addition, HRT would be psychologically devastating to most nontranssexuals.
The IOC’s recommendations are based on (surprise) medical information about transsexuals, not the fevered prejudicial ramblings of those who know nothing about what they talk. If you want not to be taken for an ignorant jackass, you would be well-advised to look into the basis for their rules rather than gabble on in ignorance about how unfair they are to women athletes. :rolleyes:
And there’s our beloved KellyM showing us the tact that makes her a fine diplomat for the transexual community. :rolleyes:
I understand this is a pretty important issue for you so I can appreciate your strong feelings. Has there been any TG or TS thread you’ve participated in without resorting to childish insults? I’m pretty TS friendly but I admit I’m not expert on the topic and I was genuinely curious as to whether a MtF TS would have any advantage. How about that! I learned something new today.
Marc
I tried to be nice the last time this was brought up. (I’m quite certain there are other threads on this topic, but I can’t find them right now and even finding that thread was hard; obviously something is wrong with the search engine.) It gets tiring after a while dismissing the same objections and prejudices over and over again. I make no claims to be a “diplomat”. I definitely lack the patience required for that job.
[Fixed link --Gaudere]
[Moderator Hat ON]
KellyM, if you are trying to call any poster in this thread an “ignorant jackass”, all I can say is DON’T.
[Moderator Hat OFF]
KellyM - sorry if you are offended by this thread, but I don’t see any evidence of people trying to be offensive.
I started the thread out of a genuine desire to learn more about the subject, as well as look at the ethics of it (IF and only if there is a physical advantage). Your information about your own situation is very interesting and relevant, so thank you for posting it.
I disagree, but I’ll leave it at that. And I wasn’t aware when I first posted that the SDMB search was still malfunctioning or I would not be quite so annoyed at having the same arguments that were raised and met in the previous thread recur.
It is tiresome and frustrating to be constantly facing people (both on and off the Boards) who make blanket pronouncements about transsexuals absent any knowledge of the medical and psychological realities of what it’s like to be transsexual. I lost my temper earlier and I apologize for that. (I’ve been paying too much attention to the Gender Recognition Bill that is winding its way through the British Parliament, I suppose. Some of the crap that was doled out in the House of Lords was just outrageous.) Asking questions when you don’t know is never a problem. Making pronouncements when you don’t know, on the other hand, is.
I imagine it does get frustrating. A while back I used to be on the fence when it came to TS issues. I wasn’t the type of person who wanted to see 'em hurt or ridiculed but I didn’t know much about them. The Straight Dope was one of the places that helped me understand the issue to a greater degree. I’m still no expert but thanks to you and others I understand and empathize a lot more then I used to.
Marc
I don’t think it’s fair. I agree with Headcoat that the difference in skeletal structure could possibly give the male-to-female transexual a serious advantage. I know studies have been done that correlate the ratio of middle to index finger lengths to the amount of testosterone that the fetus was exposed to in the womb. You’ll notice that on most men the difference in length between the middle and ring finger is significantly greater than the difference in women’s.
There was one scientist–and granted this was on the Discovery Channel–that was attempting to correlate finger ratios with athleticism citing that testosterone exposure in the womb was the most influential exposure period on determining later athleticism.
Maybe I don’t have the right perspective, being a lazy computer science type, but I really can’t see anyone doing this just to have a competitive advantage, particularly if it ended up being restricted to post-ops. Not only would it be extremely difficult, both from a personal and a practical standpoint (find an unscrupulous or easily fooled doctor, change hormones completely, have one’s man-parts removed forever) but it’s not something that could easily be kept secret once it was done. Anyone who’d be willing to do this solely to be in the Olympics or get a medal is almost certainly only after the glory, and considering that most people are still pretty freaked out by transsexuals, I don’t think there would really BE that positive response.
Well, since I don’t really know in what ways being transsexual affects your ability to compete in a sport, speaking as a person who was born female, I think there’s only one fair way to resolve the question.
I’ll arm-wrestle KellyM for it.