My husband (a Virginia resident) will be visiting his father (a Missouri resident, henceforth referred to as FIL) in a few weeks. FIL is in not-great health, and we suspect he is subtly “getting his affairs in order.” One of the things FIL would like to do while my husband is there is to give him a 9mm handgun that FIL has owned for many decades. He has been promising my husband that he will inherit the gun since husband was 9, so the gun has been in the family for at least 40 years.
From what I can tell, private handgun transfers of this type do not require a firearms dealer middleman if both parties are MO residents. What about if one of the parties is an out of state resident? Husband is a retired Marine and is a bit anal about paperwork, so he is already going to ensure that his dad writes up a “bill of sale” that they will both sign.
Any insight is very appreciated!! And if you have tips on ensuring he can get it onto the plane (checked luggage) and back to Virginia, those are welcome as well.
I don’t know the best answer. I know one way is for your father to ship it to a gun dealer where your husband lives and for your husband buy it from them. That is, the gun dealer in your husband’s state will effect the interstate transfer and charge your husband some money (let’s say $40 or so) to do the paperwork.
A terrible and illegal way to do this is for your husband to come from out of state and buy the gun from his father. Unless your husband has a gun dealer license, he will be illegally engaging in interstate trafficking in handguns, which is a federal crime. https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearms-frequently-asked-questions-unlicensed-persons
What they said. to be safest, I would probably contact a gun shop near where your FIL lives as well as one in VA near where you live, and see what they say. They should be pretty familiar with the process. you may need to have a MO FFL holder ship it to the VA FFL holder, and have the VA FFL holder go through the paperwork for the transfer.
(these things can be “easy” or “difficult” depending on what state you’re in. IIRC “across state lines” tends to put things on the “difficult” side.)
As suggested, I chatted with two very nice gentlemen at gun stores in MO. Both gave the same advice: fill out a bill of sale from FIL to husband for $1 that has both parties’ and the gun’s information, then ship the gun via FexEx or UPS to VA, signature required. Keep the paperwork in the gun safe for a minimum of 7 years, and after that husband can sell the gun if he wants (he won’t). The reason they suggested shipping instead of packing it in the checked luggage was for an extra layer of security- they’ve known people whose guns have been stolen from luggage, and if there’s a tracking number and the package goes missing, it’s easier to narrow down where things went awry. But both said as long as it’s in a locked container and he declares it, he can bring it back to VA with him on the plane.
The other option is to do a face-to-face transfer at the gun store where the dealer does a quick background check on husband, and FIL literally hands the gun to him after it comes back clean. $10 for that at the first store, $25 at the second.
Apparently because VA does not require guns to be registered, and MO has a loose private party-to-private party process, this is fairly straightforward.
I’m going to call the dealer where we’ve purchased our last few guns here in VA just to check things from this end, since the answers I got from MO are so… interesting.
I realized there’s another assumption I’m making about your husband here (that he’s not a prohibited person), which while probably true, is worth getting explicit information about: Is your husband a prohibited person (felon, dishonorable discharge, misdemeanor DV conviction, illegal drug user, illegal alien, restraining order, etc)? If he is, he can’t legally purchase / possess a firearm, and attempting to do so has a good chance of landing him in very real legal peril.
Assuming he’s not a prohibited person, the legal way to transfer the firearm is to ship it to a Virginia FFL dealer (I’d call them and ask for how they want to handle this transfer and follow their procedures) and have your husband go there and go through the background check procedure, and take possession of the gun.
Those answers aren’t just interesting; they are wrong. Your husband is not a resident of Missouri. He is a resident of Virginia. Under federal law, he can not buy a handgun outside of Virginia, not for a dollar, a cent, or even a button, unless he is a Federal Firearms Licensee. If he was an FFL holder, he should not be coming here for advice because he should already know this.
For what it’s worth, there is no need or benefit under federal law to go through a gun dealer in Missouri. Your father-in-law can use a common carrier (not the U.S. Postal Service) to ship the gun to the Virginia dealer of your choice. Then, you’re husband will fill out the paperwork at that dealer and get the gun from them.
Husband is definitely not a prohibited person. Nor is he a FFL holder.
I called the VA store where we (well, he) purchased our last guns from. I very, very clearly stated that FIL is a resident of MO, currently living there, and that husband is a resident of VA, living here. I also made sure the clerk I was speaking to handled the paperwork end of things, and wasn’t just a cashier/randomly standing in for someone.
He said the same thing the MO folks did. The only thing he added was that FIL can choose to come here to VA, bring the gun with him in his checked luggage (in a locked hard-sided case), and leave it behind for husband- no harm, no foul, no need to get a FFL holder in VA involved. FIL does not travel due to his health (he missed husband’s retirement from the USMC and our wedding), so this is right out. If FIL did travel to VA and wanted to do the “face to face at the gun store exchange” that MO offered, it would be $40 for the paperwork plus $2 for the background check. Everything’s more expensive in VA.
The rep did say that things would be very different if we were trying this in CA/NY/OR/a handful of other states, but because VA does not have a gun registry and the exchange is between family members, even though it’s between out-of-state parties it’s in the clear. The store I called handles the majority of sales to military folks in our area (a not-inconsequential number of people) and used to have a satellite store on a local military base, so I would hope they are aware of current regulations and handling sales where the individual’s official state of residency is not the same as where they reside/where the gun is being purchased.
I have to admit that I am even more confused now than I was previously. Is it possible that it’s because it’s an exchange between family members? When FIL first talked about leaving husband the gun in his will, he had checked on the legalities there, and it turned out that the executor could ship the gun directly to my husband without involving a FFL holder as long as the gun was specifically identified by description and serial number in the will (that came directly from a lawyer).
I’m thinking that I’m just going to pass all this information on to my husband and let him figure out how he wants to handle it.
Too late to edit. I believe this is the most appropriate federal regulation, from the ATF page:
"Q: What record-keeping procedures should be followed when two private individuals want to engage in a firearms transaction?
When a transaction takes place between private (unlicensed) persons who reside in the same State, the Gun Control Act (GCA) does not require any record keeping. A private person may sell a firearm to another private individual in his or her State of residence and, similarly, a private individual may buy a firearm from another private person who resides in the same State. It is not necessary under Federal law for a Federal firearms licensee (FFL) to assist in the sale or transfer when the buyer and seller are “same-State” residents. Of course, the transferor/seller may not knowingly transfer a firearm to someone who falls within any of the categories of prohibited persons contained in the GCA. See 18 U.S.C. §§ 922(g) and (n). However, as stated above, there are no GCA-required records to be completed by either party to the transfer.
There may be State or local laws or regulations that govern this type of transaction. Contact State Police units or the office of your State Attorney General for information on any such requirements.
Please note that if a private person wants to obtain a firearm from a private person who resides in another State, the firearm will have to be shipped to an FFL in the buyer’s State. The FFL will be responsible for record keeping. See also Question B3."
But both states are saying otherwise, and the VA folks flat-out said not to ship it to them. Sigh.
And the FFL only needs to be involved on the Virginia side, FIL can package and ship it himself, though he may wish to go through a dealer to save the legwork. USPS won’t ship handguns, so UPS or Fedex.
If FIL MOVES to Virginia, then he can sell / gift the handgun to a fellow Virginia resident without issue (barring some Virginia state-level laws that I may not be aware of). As long as he’s a resident of Missouri, he can’t do a private-party sale of a handgun to a resident of another state without involving an FFL. To do so is to invite federal felony charges along the lines “arms trafficking” or something to that effect.
Could he just mail it to the son and that would be it? He doesn’t have to report that he is giving his gun to the son, or the fact that he doesn’t have possession of the gun anymore, does he? And the son doesn’t have to register the gun or report that he has possession of the gun, right?
(not an anti-gun question, just curious about the rules)
I suppose it’s possible. I’m quite knowledgeable about firearms laws, but it IS a confusing morass, so it’s possible that there’s some intra-family transfer exception I’m unaware of. These IS an exception for inheritance after the owner’s death, but I don’t think that applies here if the FIL is still alive. All I can do is point you (and your husband) to information from various source, and politely encourage you to keep contacting various Virginia FFLs until you find one willing to assist in the inter-state transfer. I’m saddened that the three you’ve reached out to so far have given such appalling-bad advice.
Aside from the ATF links above, here are some more to bolster my case, from various sources, including some anti-gun ones:
It’s going to depend somewhat on the state’s laws. In my state (Utah), for example, I could ship a handgun (don’t use the US Postal Service, which “mail” seems to imply) via a common carrier like UPS or FedEx to a family member or friend (assuming they are not a prohibited person) in another part of Utah without any issues. Here, like many states, there’s no registration / reporting requirement, and the transfer would be in compliance with federal laws:
Some (usually “blue”) states have enacted bans on these private-party transfers or other registration or reporting requirements. I’d encourage anyone and everyone to check their local laws before transferring a firearm.
Did you very clearly state that (1) this is a handgun and (2) that your husband plans to buy this from his father with a signed bill of sale and everything? Also, do you usually take legal advice from store clerks that contradicts information from the federal law enforcement agency in charge of enforcing that rule says?
“Leave it behind” is not the same as “dad writes up a ‘bill of sale’ that they will both sign.” The written bill of sale will be evidence of a crime. In fact, though, the fact that this is a purchase rather than a gift does not matter.
Your husband can’t import the handgun into Virginia because he is not a federally-licensed gun dealer, importer, manufacturer, or collector.
Your father can’t give the handgun to your husband.
The critical lesson from this warning is to comply with the state requirements where the transfer takes place. Both parties need to comply with the possession requirements and the transfer requirements, whatever those might be. Since it sounds like you plan to do the transfer in Missouri, look at Missouri’s law. Does Missouri law allow the transfer of handguns to family members who are out-of-state residents who don’t have an FFL?
At the very least, Missouri law prohibits your husband from buying the gun from his father, because it would also be a violation of federal law, as noted above.
I can’t see that your FIL giving the handgun to your husband would violate Missouri state law but I might have missed it because I didn’t look too hard. I don’t care to look harder because, in any event, it violates federal law.
There is an exception in the federal law if your husband inherits the gun. Since dear FIL is not yet dead, this exception, and the lawyer’s advice, does not yet apply.
Find another dealer in Virginia. Somebody has dealt with this before and it will only cost about $40.
I am not trying to be obstinate, and I genuinely appreciate all the information, but… how many dealers should I call? I’ve spoken with two in MO and two in VA and they are all saying the exact same thing with the following very specific information being provided:
Husband is a resident of VA
FIL is a resident of MO
FIL is giving the gun, a 9mm pistol that’s approximately 40 years old, to husband.
Husband is interested in picking the gun up in MO and transporting it back to VA, either via his flight home or via FedEx/UPS.
It seems to me that large firearm dealers in military-heavy areas should be on the same page when it comes to state and federal law; do I call until I reach one that has a different answer than everyone else? I’m not opposed to that, but it’ll genuinely suck if the only people willing to assist with the transfer are on the other side of the state.
If we need to wait until FIL passes and his will is probated so we can avoid this whole thing, then we can do that, but FIL would rather know the gun is being used and cared for… hence the reason for all the research.
The ATF wouldn’t charge the dealers that gave you the bad advice. They would charge your husband and/or FIL. And “we called a bunch of FFLs and they all gave me the same advice” wouldn’t work well as a defense at trial.
Nor is he a FFL holder.
Is it possible that it’s because it’s an exchange between family members? When FIL first talked about leaving husband the gun in his will, he had checked on the legalities there, and it turned out that the executor could ship the gun directly to my husband without involving a FFL holder as long as the gun was specifically identified by description and serial number in the will (that came directly from a lawyer).