Transformers (cartoon/film/movie franchise) Cosmology and Biology

[Atamasama]

Continuing the discussion from Is it possible to be racist against AIs?:

I started off a new thread because I was worried that this was getting too off-topic for the original thread in GD. While the origin of the Transformers is tangentially related to the topic of AI, and whether you can be racist to them, I didn’t want to completely take the thread off the rails, but felt that it was worth answering some very good questions.

@Babale

Were they already robots before this happened (the planet name Cybertron kind of implies it, but maybe it’s more like nominal predestination?)

They were. The entire planet is a giant machine, and they were living machines that populated it. It’s interesting that they were so humanoid on a planet with no humans, but I guess it’s just an example of convergent evolution (which is a common explanation for why so many aliens in science fiction stories are human-like).

They could also transform on Cybertron, usually into some kind of vehicle, but they were hyper-futuristic vehicles that were very different from what you find on Earth.

As an example, Bumblebee is a yellow Volkswagen Bug on Earth. But on Cybertron, he originally looked like a yellow flying saucer-shaped ground craft. Here are examples from the pilot cartoon.

@Babale

Were they being built like this when they all lived on Cybertron? Or did they have to become robotic after they left?

And, assuming they were already robots on Cybertron, were they like… Robots who formed around this AllSpark that already existed? Or is it implied (or outright stated) that they were originally created by an earlier race of biological beings?

They started out as transforming robots (though depending on the particular storyline, such as the recent Transformers One animated film, they were robots granted the ability to transform into something else later). And they have their own creation story you’d come to expect; they basically have their own god. It’s a being named Primus, who has always existed. It is itself a nearly omnipotent being that appears artificial, but was spontaneously created at the dawn of time.

Primus eventually became Cybertron, and every spark (soul) is a piece of the essence of Primus.

@Babale

OK, I see why you compared the Spark to a Soul, now. So even though this computer was capable of bringing them to Earth and making the decision to reform them so they can transform into Earth cars, they view it as a thing and not a person.

Precisely. It’s so weird to think that a kids’ cartoon made as a way to market old Japanese toys to America could get so philosophical, but give enough writers enough time to come up with a narrative, and it can get pretty deep eventually.

[DigitalC]

The transformers were created by the Quintessons (basically multifaced lovecraftian octopus like robots) as slaves. The autobots were mostly workers and the decepticons soldiers. At least this was the cannon in the original cartoon. And Transformers 1 I believe.

[Atamasama]

@DigitalC

At least this was the cannon in the original cartoon.

You are correct. Primus created them in the comics, and in most other media, but the Quintessons created them in the first cartoon continuity (per the original animated film). I remember watching that movie as a kid. I don’t think Primus was mentioned at all in any of those cartoons, though considering they never mentioned where Cybertron came from (AFAIK) you might retroactively still consider him the creator of that planet (since he became that planet in other media) and therefore, indirectly the creator of the Transformers.

In the original cartoon, the Quintessons were originally from Cybertron, and directly created the Transformers to be slaves, who eventually rebelled against them and overthrew their rulers, and finally drove them off the planet. The Quintessons fled to a new planet they named Quintessa.

Also, the primary antagonist in most of the Transformers media is Unicron. In the comics, he is the opposite and main antagonist of Primus. As Primus turned into Cybertron, Unicron transforms into a planet himself, but unlike Primus he transforms from a planet into a gigantic cosmic robot. Unicron also made his first appearance in the same original animated film that introduced the Quintessons.

(As an aside, I have always loved Unicron since I saw him in the theaters; he transforms into a planet?! And at one point, as an adult, when I could afford it, I bought a Unicron toy. The thing is pretty huge for a Transformer. He is currently lurking in a cardboard box in my garage. I’d bring him indoors, but I have no idea where I’d put him.)

@DigitalC

And Transformers 1 I believe.

From what I remember of Transformers One, the Quintessons were more like invaders (and enslavers) of Cybertron. I don’t recall them being portrayed as creators of the Transformers. Instead, Primus sacrificed his life force to create Cybertron, and the Thirteen Primes. Those Primes went on to create the other Transformers.

I should also point out that in the Earthspark cartoon continuity (which I have yet to watch, but it’s on my list), the Quintessons were creations of Quintessa Prime, who is one of the Primes created by Primus.

[Chronos]

I’ve never really liked the Transformers’ origin story (nor, for that matter, the Go-Bots’). Both have them originating as robots, that gain the ability to transform into vehicles. But they’re very clearly robots made out of vehicle parts. If Optimus Prime the robot was first, why does he have pecs that look just like a semi-truck windshield?

The story I would have gone with is that there are two super-advanced alien races battling across the cosmos (call them Arisians and Eddorans, for convenience, though obviously a real franchise would have needed new names). The Eddorans are trying to conquer everyone, and the Arisians are trying to stop them. But the catch is that interplanetary travel is really, really difficult, even for these hyperadvanced races: All they can afford to send to a planet (to try to conquer it, for the Eddorans, or to defend it, for the Arisians) are a few specks of nanites, which are programmed to seek out local technology and to integrate with and improve it. So if Eddoran nanites find a fighter jet, you get Starscream, and if Arisian nanites find a semi tractor, you get Optimus Prime.

[Darren_Garrison]

@Atamasama

Primus created them in the comics

This is the first page of the first issue of Transformers (which I bought when in first came out in 1984).

[Atamasama]

@Darren_Garrison

This is the first page of the first issue of Transformers (which I bought when in first came out in 1984).

Which fits with Primus being Cybertron.

(Also, with comics I’m sure there have been retcons.)

[DigitalC]

@Chronos

If Optimus Prime the robot was first, why does he have pecs that look just like a semi-truck windshield?

I mean, he didn’t look like a semi truck robot before he was a semi truck robot. The looks you are familiar with for Optimus Prime and most of the other Transformers are their looks after crash landing on earth and being turned into earth vehicles.

[Push_You_Down]

At this point there are multiple continuities.

But for a time there was an official “aligned” continuity that tried to make all the current media conform.

I think currently, Primus is the prime creator but then there are a pantheon of Primes who are like greek gods.

Aligned timeline - Transformers Wiki

[Babale]

@Atamasama

Precisely. It’s so weird to think that a kids’ cartoon made as a way to market old Japanese toys to America could get so philosophical, but give enough writers enough time to come up with a narrative, and it can get pretty deep eventually.

I noticed that often with lore built around an existing product - Warhammer miniatures, lore in various video games (especially when a sequel copies the mechanics of a prior game but tried to treat the subject matter with more gravity and plot in a future installment), etc - the medium provides narrative constraints that are completely artificial, from a Doylost perspective, but these constraints lead to some incredibly creative Watsonian explanations of game mechanics.

@Atamasama

And they have their own creation story you’d come to expect; they basically have their own god. It’s a being named Primus, who has always existed. It is itself a nearly omnipotent being that appears artificial, but was spontaneously created at the dawn of time.

Trippy. So Primus is a god who just happens to look like robot, not an artificially constructed being? And then he made the transformers in his image, so they were never created by a biological alien race?

That raises the question of why they would need to transform into vehicles on a planet where everyone’s a robot and there are no regular vehicles to hide among.

[Push_You_Down]

@Babale

That raises the question of why they would need to transform into vehicles on a planet where everyone’s a robot and there are no regular vehicles to hide among.

Well, it’s not for disguise–that’s only for Earth. In some cases their alt-mode is for utility–to go faster, to lift more, to be a tool for others..

Remember not all of them transform into vehicles…Perceptor is a microscope. Ravage is a cat AND a cassette tape…and later even adopts a humanoid form for the Beast Wars series.

If you want to deep dive, here’s another tfwiki article- Alternate mode - Transformers Wiki

[Chronos]

@DigitalC

I mean, he didn’t look like a semi truck robot before he was a semi truck robot. The looks you are familiar with for Optimus Prime and most of the other Transformers are their looks after crash landing on earth and being turned into earth vehicles.

He looked like that in the origin panel linked by @Darren_Garrison .

But even if we do go with that, it still doesn’t answer the question. The recent movies have them as total shapeshifters, so sure, when they came to Earth, they could shapeshift into local shapes to fit in. But if they’re total shapeshifters, why keep the vehicular appearance when in biped form?

The vehicular appearance only makes sense if the “actual” process for transformation works like it does for the toys, where Optimus’s legs fold behind him to form the hitch, or whatever. But that’s not the way the non-toy media have them transforming.

[Babale]

@Chronos

The vehicular appearance only makes sense if the “actual” process for transformation works like it does for the toys, where Optimus’s legs fold behind him to form the hitch, or whatever. But that’s not the way the non-toy media have them transforming.

Hold up, it’s not? Isn’t that like, the whole point of Transformers?

[DigitalC]

@Chronos

The vehicular appearance only makes sense if the “actual” process for transformation works like it does for the toys, where Optimus’s legs fold behind him to form the hitch, or whatever. But that’s not the way the non-toy media have them transforming.

The answer is the Michael Bay movies took a lot of liberties with their looks and they are not consistent with any other media. The 80s cartoon for being a very cheaply made half hour toy commercial at least made some efforts to match the toy transformations. To varying results and changing from episode to episode.