Transgender for everyone

The BBQ Pit
101

That’s actually the accepted term. Though it’s usually abbreviated as AMAB (or AFAB). Having been assigned a particular gender does not make it so.

And that is the difference @We_re_wolves_not_werewolves. Saying someone is “biologically male” is inaccurate if they have undergone physical changes that alter their sexual characteristics. Human sexual expression is mediated by hormones, not by chromosomes.

This is not true of all animal species, btw. An example may help make the distinction above more clear. There are birds out there which have white feathers on one side of their body, and red feathers on the other. This is a striking example of sexual chimerism: the left half of their body has one set of sexual chromosomes, while the right has another. And because those chromosomes define sex, they genuinely appear half male and half female.

Sexual chimerism also occurs in humans. But this sort of pattern is impossible. Since hormones determine sex, the XX cells and XY cells are not so easily distinguished. You don’t wind up with, say, one breast or anything like that. In fact, all your cells can be XY, and yet, if you have complete androgen insensitivity syndrome, you can wind up with extreme feminine characteristics.

Anyways, saying I’m AMAB, that I was assigned male at birth? That’s a factual claim. They put an M on my birth certificate. From birth I was treated as male. I presented as a boy and eventually as a man.

Now, I will admit that this fact can sometimes cause some dysphoria is some trans femmes. It does not for me, but being reminded of such can rarely trigger a dysphoric reaction (especially in those who are still early in their transition). So I wouldn’t use it unless necessary.

But I am unaware of a better term for when it is. Every other term I have heard just isn’t accurate.

102

CAMAB - Coercively assigned male at birth is the accurate version. Please don’t minimize the dysphoria of others. Dysphoria can destroy lives.

103

To be fair, however, pretty much everything that’s done to infants in the way of legal or medical procedures can accurately be described as being done “coercively”. I was coercively assigned female at birth, coercively assigned my legal name and SS number, coercively vaccinated, etc.

As it happens, I was lucky enough to have all that nonconsensual imposition work out okay for me in my later life. But it was still performed just as coercively on my baby self as it is on infants who are later discovered to be transgender, or in other ways ill-served by the decisions inflicted on them in infancy.

104

And I think the key issue here is that it’s fundamentally unnecessary, in the vast majority of circumstances, to refer to somebody’s birth gender assignment. Someone who identifies as a woman using female pronouns is accurately referred to as “she” and a “woman” in social usage. If she happens to be transgender and that fact is specifically relevant in a particular context, she is accurately referred to as a “transgender woman”.

If a particular fact about her karyotype, or her genitalia at birth, etc. is genuinely relevant in some context (and such contexts are pretty rare), then it can be referred to using accurate clinical language. Usually the only people who really need to do this are wearing a stethoscope.

IMHO what’s transphobic about the routine social use of “AMAB” and “biological male” and similar terms to characterize trans individuals is not so much the specific wording of the terms themselves, but the fact that this clinical information is being treated like a key part of their social identity. [Edit: Not suggesting that anybody in this thread is doing so, though.]

It’s a bit like nonwhite characters in early 20th-c. fiction being constantly described as “dusky” or “dark” etc. whenever they’re mentioned, even when the word is completely superfluous for narrative purposes (”he shook his dusky head”, ”a smile crossed her brown face”). YES WE GET IT THIS CHARACTER IS NONWHITE, YOU DON’T NEED TO KEEP REAPPLYING THE LABEL EVERY DAMN TIME.

The proper way to refer to somebody’s gender identity is as seldom as possible. If it really needs referring to, they’ll guide you on preferred terminology.

105

True. I’m reminded of the way that some societies (especially in history, I’m not sure anyone does this today) delayed naming for years after birth. (Judaism often delays naming until the 8th day for boys, but obviously this doesn’t mean the kid picks their own name.)

There are also many historical societies where children are named, but with the understanding that this name is temporary and they will be renamed by their choice when reaching adulthood.

I don’t think that a society where that kind of renaming is the default is inherently better than one where it can be done if you choose and that choice is not stigmatized.

106

You instantly brought David Reimer to my mind. His case showing that the biology of gender isn’t as simple as some people want it to be.

107

True words.

I’m a CIS dad. My bonafides. Started life with three girls. My son came out as trans 3 days before starting high school seven years ago. Started on a tiny dose of testosterone at 16 1/2. Had top surgery at 17 the summer between the Junior and Senior year of high school.

My son developed serious body dysphoria during puberty. Say it a different way that may resonate better, he hated being in a young lady’s body. It was the opposite of the way he viewed himself. Developing breasts and periods were deeply traumatizing. Whenever out in public, he wore a chest binder and baggy clothes to hide his body shape. Once, we went snowboarding and he had forgotten his chest binder (which is seriously uncomfortable and can bruise ribs if worn too long), so despite having very baggy unisex snowboarding clothing, he wouldn’t get out of the car.

Knock on effects. He hated mirrors. Developed debilitating anxiety in public. I got at least monthly calls from the school about expressing suicidal ideation. He would joke almost daily at home along the lines of “I did poorly on the quiz, kill me now.” School and learning suffered. Sleep suffered. Family and friends suffered. He was trapped in a body that was simply not right.

Fortunately, my son had access to good support in more open times. Cadillac health insurance, medical help, Seattle Children’s Hospital had a gender clinic and anxiety clinic, good therapist, surgeon, etc. I had good advice from the Microsoft trans-community, these boards, some other parents. As challenging as being trans is, as his father I hate to even think about whether he would be alive today without the transition.

The suicidal ideation ended about a week after his first testosterone shot. In fact, he over-compensated for a couple of months along the lines of “please drive more carefully Dad now that I have a reason to live for.” Not trying to say that it was the T shot that made the dramatic impact, rather it was that he started on the transition path that gave him hope. He likes looking in the mirror now. He’s finishing junior year at university, a serious science major, in a loving long term relationship, and his worst grades were two B+'s.

As Johanna wrote, body dysphoria can be debilitating, and, at the same time, can be difficult to imagine for those without it. If you can, try empathizing what it would be like if your body weighed on you for most of your waking hours navigating life.

108

with all due respect, no it’s not. Coercion literally means against someone’s will. A baby does not have a will in this matter, it cannot. I’m not downplaying dysphoria, but that develops much much later than birth. Because you now disagree with how you were identified by others at birth does not mean that such identification at the time of your birth was coercive. At worst it was just incorrect.

109

Thank you, @China_Guy.

110

I would agree with this. It becomes coercion when the parents send the child to military school “to make a man out of her,” for example.

111

It’s simply out of love, and wanting the best outcome for your child. Each individual is different, and therefore should be up to that individual and their family if a minor. Not a place for government mandating there are only two sexes, and sentencing individuals to suffer when there are solutions.

When my son came out as trans (“good news and bad news Dad, you’ve gained a son and lost a daughter”), my immediate reaction was “you’re my child, I love you, with you on the journey, big hug”. I confess I cringed inside simply based on a small inkling of the difficulties ahead, but no regrets fully supporting his journey. It’s the right thing to do, and the only thing a caring parent should do.

112

I think “nonconsensual” is a reasonable neutral term here. It’s true that the baby is being forcibly subjected to legal and medical procedures that he/she didn’t consent to, but it’s also true that there’s no realistic scenario in which meaningful consent on the baby’s part would have been possible for any procedure. So the term “nonconsensual” implies merely that consent wasn’t present, not that active coercion was used to overcome conscious resistance.

113

“Nonconsensual” would be more precise.

114

That statement was about people who try to raise a child in the gender that they are not. Yeah, there are people who do it, thankfully not very many although I do know someone personally who I believe is doing this. Further details could identify them, so I won’t say any more.

I have a cousin who is AMAB and he changed his birth name some years ago, to Richard because he didn’t like his original name. My uncle died recently, and my mother still refuses to refer to him as Richard. I told her, “I’d be more concerned if he wanted to call himself Richelle, and if he wants to do that, all we could do is be supportive.” He’s about 50 years old, not a confused hormonal adolescent, and TBH I believe he is on the autism spectrum, FWIW.

115

That’s horrible and your son is lucky to have a supportive dad like you.

116

Sure, but I’d say that’s inherent in the word “assigned.” Such a word would be unnecessary if it was chosen. That seems to be why that is by far the preferred word and AMAB/AFAB the preferred terms.

I have not seen CAMAB/CAFAB before. Looking it up, it seems that this term is used for intersex individuals who underwent surgical alteration to fit into the gender binary.

In that context, I can see a much better argument for coercive fitting. The parents or doctors* weren’t just mistaken, as in @Maus_Magill argument, but made alterations to encourage enforcement into the gender binary.

*it has been known to be done without parental permission, or with the doctor picking the sex and telling the parents that it’s just a defect, rather than being intersex.

117

Yes, ISTM it would be understood someone other than yourself did the assigning.

118

OK, sure. “Nonconsensual” is the calm, reasoned, just-the-facts-ma’am version. The first time I saw “coercively,” I didn’t analyze it; it immediately appealed to me as an in-your-face à la Act Up confrontational way to say it, a bit of emotional catharsis there, considering the sometimes violent coercion applied in my childhood. Male gender was literally pounded into me physically.

119

The other problem with the term “biological male” (or “biological female”) is that psychology is part of biology. At most, you could say that some aspects of a person’s biology are male.

As for medical relevance, it depends on why it’s medically relevant. If it’s medically relevant whether someone has XY chromosomes, or what their natural levels are of various hormones, then the appropriate thing to do is for the hospital to test for those things. Because most of us don’t actually know what our chromosomes or hormone levels are. Sure, most of us can make educated guesses, that are over 90% likely to be correct, but we don’t actually know until and unless there’s some reason to run the tests.

120

apologies. I said @Maus_Magill, when I meant @We_re_wolves_not_werewolves.