Transgendered 6 Year Old Wins Rights Case

[miss_elizabeth]

@grude

I think you can understand and be tolerant of and support the rights of transgendered individuals, while still being a bit incredulous that gender identity “disorder” can be accurately diagnosed at age 3-6. I realize it is probably society demanding a diagnosis, but it still seems sad to have to rush your kid to the psych just because they aren’t fitting into rigid gender stereotypes. Can’t they just have long hair or play with GI Joes without having to have a diagnosis.

It makes me cringe in the same way that parents will proclaim their preschooler is gay, or say there are two gay kids in their child’s kindergarten class. I’m like you don’t really know what orientation they are, and it seems crazy to decide since they are not 100% stereotypical you know they are gay(not that there is anything wrong with that). I would cringe at people proclaiming their kid is straight too.

And diagnostic criteria are not and never have been confidential.

I understand where you’re coming from, and that type of thing also makes me uncomfortable (related: when friends have babies near the same age and talk about how one day their kids might get married. SUPER WEIRD Y’ALL) but there are very good reasons why it’s a wonderful thing to diagnose at an early age. First, though, the diagnoses is a lot more than just “kid likes dolls and long hair”. It’s so much more than that, and you’re marginalizing the real experiences and difficulties of trans people when you reduce it to something so superficial.

As I said earlier, going through puberty as the wrong gender is unbelievably difficult for these kids. It’s hard enough for a child who is certain she’s a girl to look down and see a penis there, but when the secondary sex characteristics start coming, it can be devastating. And, as I said, these changes are not easily undone. Thicker bones, an adam’s apple, a deeper voice, facial hair… these are things that can keep a woman from successfully transitioning. The effects of testosterone on the body during puberty are amazing, and some of them are pretty irreversible. Do you really feel comfortable telling a girl she has to go through that experience, and carry the scars of it all her life, just because you feel weirded out by kids being diagnosed young? And, obviously, female puberty is no picnic either, even though the changes are easier to reverse later.

Then you get into the psychological effects. There are children coming of age now who were diagnosed young and have lived all their lives as their correct gender. If you look at their lives, and compare them to people who had to wait until adulthood to transition, there’s just no denying that starting younger is the way to go. They never have to “transition” at all! They just grow up happily. They never internalize that self-hatred. They may have the wrong genitals, but they have support from their families and therapists, and they are secure and healthy. It’s a beautiful, wonderful thing.

I really do understand where you’re coming from. But just like it makes no sense to tell a young man coming out at the age of, say, 12 that he needs to sleep with a few women before he really knows’, it makes no sense (and is really quite cruel) to tell a young trans child they need to grow up before they really know if they’re a boy or a girl. And when it’s done to make sure a bunch of grown-ups on a messageboard don’t feel uncomfortable, it’s just disgusting.

[DiosaBellissima]

@PastTense

So how is this going to be handled when Coy does physical education–where students take showers afterwards?

I’m 27 years old and never once in my 12+ years of public education did I ever see the school showers get used for anything other than a storage space. I’ve worked at high schools for the last 9 years and the same thing goes- nobody uses the showers, neither by force or voluntarily.

For PE, girls would change in the locker room, but no one was ever naked-- bras and underwear abound.

Things do change, buddy.

[grude]

@miss_elizabeth

I understand where you’re coming from, and that type of thing also makes me uncomfortable (related: when friends have babies near the same age and talk about how one day their kids might get married. SUPER WEIRD Y’ALL) but there are very good reasons why it’s a wonderful thing to diagnose at an early age. First, though, the diagnoses is a lot more than just “kid likes dolls and long hair”. It’s so much more than that, and you’re marginalizing the real experiences and difficulties of trans people when you reduce it to something so superficial.

As I said earlier, going through puberty as the wrong gender is unbelievably difficult for these kids. It’s hard enough for a child who is certain she’s a girl to look down and see a penis there, but when the secondary sex characteristics start coming, it can be devastating. And, as I said, these changes are not easily undone. Thicker bones, an adam’s apple, a deeper voice, facial hair… these are things that can keep a woman from successfully transitioning. The effects of testosterone on the body during puberty are amazing, and some of them are pretty irreversible. Do you really feel comfortable telling a girl she has to go through that experience, and carry the scars of it all her life, just because you feel weirded out by kids being diagnosed young? And, obviously, female puberty is no picnic either, even though the changes are easier to reverse later.

Then you get into the psychological effects. There are children coming of age now who were diagnosed young and have lived all their lives as their correct gender. If you look at their lives, and compare them to people who had to wait until adulthood to transition, there’s just no denying that starting younger is the way to go. They never have to “transition” at all! They just grow up happily. They never internalize that self-hatred. They may have the wrong genitals, but they have support from their families and therapists, and they are secure and healthy. It’s a beautiful, wonderful thing.

I really do understand where you’re coming from. But just like it makes no sense to tell a young man coming out at the age of, say, 12 that he needs to sleep with a few women before he really knows’, it makes no sense (and is really quite cruel) to tell a young trans child they need to grow up before they really know if they’re a boy or a girl. And when it’s done to make sure a bunch of grown-ups on a messageboard don’t feel uncomfortable, it’s just disgusting.

It isn’t really about keeping me from being uncomfortable, the thing I’m uncomfortable with is that I guess official diagnosis and going to court are required for parents/school/society to be able to allow a child live as the gender they want. A puberty age child is a whole different story, and I’ve never said anyone needs to “try out” anything.

I’d just hate to see it get to the place where any toddler outside the gender norm is taken in for an evaluation, and if a kid with M on their birth certificate wants to wear a dress to school they need an official diagnosis. It just seems like a regression somehow.

I hate commenting in these threads usually because it is pretty much no win no matter what you say

*I’ve actually wanted to make a topic a few times complaining about parents forcing their small kids to kiss or dance ugh, forcing a crying five year old to kiss a girl on his birthday for a photo op is too damn weird for me. Or talking about “he has his first GF!” man as a parent of a young kid this shit is everywhere among parents.

[Broomstick]

@Lamia

I never took a shower in the locker room either, and it’s my recollection that hardly any of the other girls did. Mostly we’d just wipe off with some baby wipes and put on fresh deodorant. We definitely weren’t frolicking nude like in the opening scenes of Carrie. (Maybe that’s really what it was like in the '70s, but not by the '90s when I was in school.) Being nude or even topless where other girls could see you was such a big taboo at the schools I went to that a pre-op transgender student probably could have “passed” without putting much more effort into hiding her body than other girls did.

I went to school in the 1970’s and ‘80’s. Nope, no nakedness in the girls’ locker room then, either.

Probably more a pre-70’s thing, maybe even pre-60’s.

[Guinastasia]

Personally, I think it’s more abusive to name a child Coy.

The only time we ever used the showers was after swimming, to wash our hair and warm up. And we left our bathing suits on. Nobody had time to take a shower.

The only thing I’m worried about is the harassment poor Coy is probably going to have to face from classmates and even teachers and staff. Considering the attitude at the Dope, one of the most liberal places I’ve known, I can’t even imagine how much crap that kid is going to have to face. (NOT that that’s a reason for her not to start transitioning, but just something I hope her parents are dealing with.)

[Nava]

@Smapti

Age of consent, I’d say.

So it would vary by location?

[Doggo]

@Moonlitherial

Barking modern society Translation: I have a friend with a child who has a medical condition but they’re just going to ignore it until he’s older because there is no physical proof.

/end translation

I was a little surprised that this manifested so clearly so young but given the teenage and preteen depression issues that many transgendered youths suffer the earlier we can address their issues the better off they will be. It certainly won’t solve everything, there will still be bullying but at least the adults are (being forced to) demonstrate acceptance of the situation.

Who says he has a medical condition? Nobody that knows him would be so gobsmackingly stupid to make such an assumption.

[WhyNot]

@grude

I’d just hate to see it get to the place where any toddler outside the gender norm is taken in for an evaluation, and if a kid with M on their birth certificate wants to wear a dress to school they need an official diagnosis. It just seems like a regression somehow.

Absolutely agree with you. That is, I’d hate to see it get to that place, too. I want gender tendencies to be just that - tendencies, and tastes and fashion, not biologic imperative. If Lee doesn’t want to wear skirts, it doesn’t matter to be if Lee is male, female, boy or girl, or any combination thereof; Lee shouldn’t have to wear skirts, and shouldn’t be pathologized for not wanting to. I absolutely do not want gender to be another club we bludgeon people over the head with, and I’m all for expanding colors and toys and activities to include all genders.

I don’t think we’re anywhere near what we fear, though.

I think that’s where we differ. You see the slippery slope, I see a supportive loving family. The key to me is: are we doing this to punish someone for not acting like we think they should? (See: shock therapy circa 1950) Or are we doing this at their request and to support them, and it results in more happiness and better outcomes? At this point, it’s the later, and I’m good with that.

You keep asking for the diagnostic criteria. It’s certainly public. Here, google found this: http://www.aclu.org/images/asset_upload_file155_30369.pdf

In layspeak:

What Are the Symptoms of Gender Identity Disorder?

Children with gender identity disorder often display the following symptoms:

Expressed desire to be the opposite sex (including passing oneself off as the opposite sex and calling oneself by an opposite sex name).
Disgust with their own genitals (Boys may pretend not to have a penis. Girls may fear growing breasts and menstruating and may refuse to sit when urinating. They also may bind their breasts to make them less noticeable.)
Belief that they will grow up to become the opposite sex.
Rejection by their peer groups.
Dressing and behaving in a manner typical of the opposite sex (for example, a female wearing boy's underwear).
Withdrawal from social interaction and activity.
Feelings of isolation, depression, and anxiety.

http://www.webmd.com/sex/gender-identity-disorder

I think you can agree that it’s far more pervasive and far more debilitating to growth and development than, “wants to wear a dress.” All little boys, at one point or another, want to wear a dress. Dressing and behaving in a manner typical of the opposite sex is on the list, but not enough to earn a diagnosis.

[BigT]

@Miller

What other medical conditions do you think should go untreated until someone turns eighteen? Depression? Diabetes? Sucking chest wounds?

I don’t know, maybe every personality disorder, and quite a few other mental illnesses? You know, other disorders that are defined the same way as Gender Identity Disorder, by ones actions and beliefs?

It’s not as stupid a question as you guys are saying. I bet there are a lot of people who never considered the idea that a child that young could be diagnosed with Gender Identity Disorder. I know my first instinct was to assume that the transgender identity had been foisted on the kid by her parents (not that that changed my opinion of what the school should allow).

I am curious if there was a brain scan involved, like there was for me and my OCD diagnosis. And I remember being told that my diagnosis was unusually early at age 8. (Then again, they also misdiagnosed me with ADHD and a pervasive developmental disorder, so I’m not sure how good that all was.)

[monstro]

@BigT

I don’t know, maybe every personality disorder, and quite a few other mental illnesses?

I’m curious about these other mental illnesses (personality disorders aren’t typically diagnosed until a person is 18, fyi). If I had a child that was truly suffering, I’d want them treated right away. I wouldn’t want to wait till they were an adult. Spending all of your formative years in a traumatic situation is not conducive for a happy adulthood, and it’s just plain cruel.

I don’t know what people would have these parents do. Let’s say Coy meets all the criteria for gender identity disorder. Coy won’t stop calling herself a little girl, and she’s made it clear she’s not going to conform as a boy. Is it really healthy for the parents to keep acting like she is a boy? She insists on dressing like a girl…are the parents supposed to expect the kids and the teachers to still relate to Coy as a boy? Is this healthy? Seems to me the parents would be total asses if they decided to stew on this matter till Coy reached adulthood. That’s a lot of years of unhappiness and torment.

[Lamia]

@WhyNot

I think you can agree that it’s far more pervasive and far more debilitating to growth and development than, “wants to wear a dress.” All little boys, at one point or another, want to wear a dress. Dressing and behaving in a manner typical of the opposite sex is on the list, but not enough to earn a diagnosis.

Yes, I think in threads like this there are often a lot of people saying basically that wanting to wear a dress doesn’t make someone a girl. Some boys like wearing dresses, and some girls don’t like wearing dresses. But as you say, I don’t think anyone is in danger of being misdiagnosed with gender identity disorder just over wearing or not wearing a dress.

I was thinking about this thread earlier and it occurred to me that a male child who does strongly identify as a girl doesn’t have much way to express this other than by dressing and behaving in a very traditionally feminine manner. The article says Coy rejected clothes with pictures of dinosaurs on them, which stood out to me because I’m a cisgender woman and when I was 6 I loved dinosaurs. I would have been delighted to wear a t-shirt with a dinosaur on it at that age…but I didn’t have anyone telling me I wasn’t “really” a girl. If adults had kept saying that I was actually a boy when I was pretty darn sure I was a girl then maybe I would have tried a little harder to seem “girly” to prove it to them. Heck, I may have already been working to prove my gender in other ways. My favorite color at that age was pink, which is not a color I particularly care for now. While to the best of my recollection I did genuinely like pink and wasn’t just pretending, I have no idea how much of my enthusiasm was simple aesthetic preference and how much was because I’d gotten the idea that pink was the “girl color” and since I was a girl then pink must be the color for me.

[Miller]

@BigT

I don’t know, maybe every personality disorder, and quite a few other mental illnesses?

From the wiki entry on personality disorder:

In children and adolescents:

Early stages and preliminary forms of personality disorders need a multi-dimensional and early treatment approach. Personality development disorder is considered to be a childhood risk factor or early stage of a later personality disorder in adulthood.[34] In addition, in Robert F.Krueger’s review of their research indicates that some children and adolescents do suffer from clinically significant syndromes that resemble adult personal disorders, and that these syndromes have meaningful correlates and are consequential. Much of this research has been framed by the adult personality disorder constructs from Axis II of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual. Hence, they are less likely to encounter the first risk they described at the outset of their review: clinicians and researchers are not simply avoiding use of the PD construct in youth. However, they may encounter the second risk they described: under-appreciation of the developmental context in which these syndromes occur. That is, although PD constructs show continuity over time, they are probabilistic predictors; not all youths who exhibit PD symptomatology become adult PD cases.[34]

Want to try again?

[Una_Persson]

Jesus Christ.

Now I understand better why Eve was so pissed off at any trans-related thread on the SDMB. The ignorance and thinly-veiled disgust in some posts is disheartening.

Unlike the people in this thread, I know trans kids personally. I know their parents. Some are my best friends. I’m also a researcher in this area. And I have my personal connection as well.

Trans kids don’t just “like pink/blue or like to play with dolls instead of trucks.” Remember folks, please, you’re reading heavily edited excerpts which have been used for a news article. Reporters pick the attention-grabbing stuff, and leave behind the things such as “after spending 12 weeks with a psychologist, person X was judged to have a severe gender dysphoria.” I personally have gone through the diagnosis process, duh, as have innumerable friends and contacts, and I work directly with psychologists to help others. I’m speaking from authority here.

Trans kids express from a very early age, repeatedly, against their parents wishes, against all the combined weight of social and peer pressure, that they are not the gender their body appears to be. No amount of psychotherapy, drugs, groundings, beatings from their peers, even punishment from their parents, change that. I’ve met them and interviewed their parents. I was talking to a wonderful mother this morning who is raising her 7 year-old trans daughter. She actually knows the parents of Coy and has spoken with them personally, and we’ve talked about the case extensively.

The societal and peer pressures of conforming to your body gender are incredible. To against that, to go against everything which says “no, you are a boy, stop being stupid” must come from a significant and profound GID. And drugs won’t cure it - as far back as the 1800’s people tried to “drug the girl out of the boy.” Harry Benjamin tried it with Dilantin and other drugs. Provera was used in the 1970’s. Although transvestites would sometimes be “cured” while they took the drugs, transsexuals stubbornly showed no effect. ECT, insulin shock, boot camps, “brainwashing” - transsexualism defies any easy “cure”. You may as well take someone with a cleft palate to psychotherapy for treatment.

You know what happens if you don’t let a transsexual transition? According to the report “Injustice at Every Turn” (Google it) suicide attempt rates and success rates are incredibly high. Here, I’ll quote from my copy:

A staggering 41% of respondents reported attempting suicide compared to 1.6% of the general population, with rates rising for those who lost a job due to bias (55%), were harassed/bullied in school (51%), had low household income, or were the victim of physical assault (61%) or sexual assault (64%).

And NO, a trans kid will NOT have their parents pushing them into surgery, at least not in the US or any other vaguely civilized country. There are surgical and psychological guidelines, for fuck’s sake. To read some of the near-trolling posts, one gains the impression that a 6 year old boy says “I like dolls!” and mommy books them in at the freaking Suporn Clinic the next day. “Get ready for Thailand, Timmy!”

As far as any “right” parents have to not have a “boy” in their bathroom - number 1, she’s not a “boy,” get over your ignorance. Number 2, what about the rights of Coy Mathis’ parents to have their daughter use the girls’ room? Number 3, WTF do people think happens in women’s toilets? Strip Twister? Neglige pillow fights? Ever been in a ladies’ room? We have these things called STALLS. They’re neat; cubicles with running water. Doors and walls.

Anyone who thinks transsexuals are people who like playing dress-up, who are just “guys who like dolls”, who are secretly gay subs trying to trick men into fucking them, or sex offenders trying to peek under stalls are just victims of their own ignorant-ass prejudice.

[miss_elizabeth]

Thank you, Una.

[Phroggge]

You tell 'em, Una!

As to showering, when I was in HS mid-50’s, we were indeed required to shower, and the gym teacher would generally check; however, many of us would simply wet arms and legs enough to pass. The few girls who would strip down unabashedly were regarded as ewwww!, and they generally shared a 4-changing bench/1 [curtained] shower cubicle; the rest of us were strait-laced & prudish, and even avoided catching a glimpse one another changing in and out of gym suits.

[even_sven]

There is a HUGE difference between “I want to to wear a dress” and “Why do you keep calling me a boy, when it’s clear as day that I am actually a girl?” In reality, gender roles don’t have much to do with being transgender at all. Transgender women can range from uber-feminine to tomboys. Transgender men can be burly lumberjacks or effeminate dudes. They can be straight, gay, lesbian, bisexual, asexual, or anything else.

In other words, it’s not the accessories or actions that make someone trans- it’s a deep rooted sense of gender identity that we may not fully understand, but every piece of evidence shows is quite clearly there and very important to many people. Nobody is going to try to diagnose a girl because she likes playing with fire trucks. But if she consistently, over time, adamantly makes it clear she is a boy and that living as a girl is causing distress, then it probably calls for a full evaluation.

While you may have not thought much about your gender identity at six years old, that’s probably because there really wasn’t much to think about. You were a girl/boy. Everyone called you girl/boy. It wasn’t a big deal. But every piece of evidence we have shows that when that is discordant, it is a big deal, and that starts quite young. Most of the transgender people I know knew quite clearly around that age that something was deeply off.

I’d like to point out that while many of the attitudes in this thread are frustrating, it’s also a vast improvement on what we saw here even five years ago.

[Una_Persson]

Forgive the typos please; that was probably the longest post I dictated to Siri in my life, LOL.

[Snowboarder_Bo]

@racer72

And he isn’t going to be stigmatized when he fully realizes his parents are bat crap crazy for raising a boy as a girl? There is no way in hell a six year old chooses to be transgendered unless his parents promote the idea.

You should really read up on the case before you go making ignorant assertions like this.

[Tapioca_Dextrin]

I’ve never (to my knowledge) met a transgendered child, but I’ve met a few adults. I have to admit that I was a bit confused for several minutes the first time I met Kate. After that, it was shrug the shoulders time, because something switched in my brain as I realized that they are just regular folk, the same as me and you.

[lorene]

@Una_Persson

Jesus Christ.

Now I understand better why Eve was so pissed off at any trans-related thread on the SDMB. The ignorance and thinly-veiled disgust in some posts is disheartening.

Unlike the people in this thread, I know trans kids personally. I know their parents. Some are my best friends. I’m also a researcher in this area. And I have my personal connection as well.

Trans kids don’t just “like pink/blue or like to play with dolls instead of trucks.” Remember folks, please, you’re reading heavily edited excerpts which have been used for a news article. Reporters pick the attention-grabbing stuff, and leave behind the things such as “after spending 12 weeks with a psychologist, person X was judged to have a severe gender dysphoria.” I personally have gone through the diagnosis process, duh, as have innumerable friends and contacts, and I work directly with psychologists to help others. I’m speaking from authority here.

Trans kids express from a very early age, repeatedly, against their parents wishes, against all the combined weight of social and peer pressure, that they are not the gender their body appears to be. No amount of psychotherapy, drugs, groundings, beatings from their peers, even punishment from their parents, change that. I’ve met them and interviewed their parents. I was talking to a wonderful mother this morning who is raising her 7 year-old trans daughter. She actually knows the parents of Coy and has spoken with them personally, and we’ve talked about the case extensively.

Ok, but…in defense of the people saying, “What if she changes her mind?” I offer a (useless?) personal anecdote.

When my daughter was in Kindergarten, she wanted to be a boy. She repeatedly cried about how much she hated being a girl. She wore only boy’s clothes, including her brother’s underwear when she could. She told me she wishes there was a pill that the doctor could give her to make her a boy. This went on for far longer than 12 weeks. I assure you there were no bearings from peers or attempts by my husband or I to change her mind. Well, I did make her stop wearing her brother’s underwear and bought her her own boxer shorts.

Fast forward 5 years to today. She is still an incredible tomboy. Still wears boxers. Wears swim trunks and a boy’s swim shirt. Shops in the boy’s section for all clothes. Hasn’t owned a dress in 5 years. But if you ask her, she is 100% adamant that she is a girl. For her it really was about being excluded by boys when she wanted to do the things they do, wear the (more comfortable) things they wear, and just hang out with them. She has a lot of male and a few female friends now and is happy as a clam, but 5 years ago, things looked a lot different.

It’s not unreasonable to point out that there may be other things going on.