Transgendered person kicked out of a gender divided bathhouse/spa

[treis]

@DocCathode

Oh goody.

So, Buck Angel (just google him) who is far more muscular than I am, who has more masculine facial features and manlier hands, should use the women’s room because he has a vagina??

I’m not saying what should be. I’m saying what is.

[treis]

And Buck Angel doesn’t appear to be transgendered. He appears to be intersexed.

[DocCathode]

@treis

I’m not saying what should be. I’m saying what is.

I’m also saying what is. Buck is a thoroughly manly man with a vagina. What room would you recommend he use?

And Buck Angel doesn’t appear to be transgendered. He appears to be intersexed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck_Angel Says that he’s a transsexual.

Buck’s own site says
[QUOTE=Buck Angel]
Hi, I am Buck Angel, The Man with a Pussy. I am the WORLDS first ever Female-to-Male transsexual porn star!
[/QUOTE]

So, I’m going with Buck being an FTM.

[Napier]

@Acsenray

You know what? Society is big and there are too many people to request fine details for every individual situation. The general rule is that there’s a men’s room and a women’s room, and it should not be more complicated than that. If an individual situation is more complicated than that, perhaps he or she should delay using open changing areas.

Just to be clear, are you saying that if today’s rest room users are not already comfortable sharing existing rest rooms with transgender people, the transgender people should just delay peeing?

[treis]

@DocCathode

I’m also saying what is. Buck is a thoroughly manly man with a vagina. What room would you recommend he use?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck_Angel Says that he’s a transsexual.

Buck’s own site says

So, I’m going with Buck being an FTM.

I don’t see the point of this line. My contention is that locker rooms are, and always have been, sex segregated and not gender segregated. The existence of people who don’t neatly fall into a male or female sex doesn’t refute that contention.

[Miller]

@Anaamika

As to the guy in the link, which is so obviously posted as a “gotcha” it’s ridiculous, yes, I would be uncomfortable with that fellow there, HOWEVER, if she’s got a vagina AND is being referred to as a she, that is where she belongs and at this point I agree that it’s my lookout to Deal with it.

It can’t have been all that obvious a gotcha, since you didn’t seem to quite get it. The person in that picture is a man. He has (I presume) a male name, uses masculine pronouns for himself, dresses like a man, and socializes like a man. He just doesn’t have a penis. I don’t mean to climb into your head, but if you have issues being naked around strange men, having that guy in the women’s room strikes me as much more of an issue than letting, say, this woman.. (No nudity in that link, but it does show a woman in skimpy lingerie.)

I don’t mean to get on your case here, and I appreciate your concerns, and particularly the concerns of someone like septima, where the situation might be triggering, but what is a transwoman who has the same triggers supposed to do? Transwomen have exactly the same personal safety and modesty concerns as cis women, on top of worries about transphobia and/or homophobia. Certainly, if actual safety issues are a concern, forcing a transwoman to use the men’s changing room is vastly more dangerous than allowing her to use the women’s.

[DocCathode]

@treis

I don’t see the point of this line. My contention is that locker rooms are, and always have been, sex segregated and not gender segregated. The existence of people who don’t neatly fall into a male or female sex doesn’t refute that contention.

If answering the question wouldn’t refute your contention, then why not answer the question? What room should Buck use?

Further, kindly define the words “sex” and “gender”

[Miller]

@treis

I don’t see the point of this line. My contention is that locker rooms are, and always have been, sex segregated and not gender segregated. The existence of people who don’t neatly fall into a male or female sex doesn’t refute that contention.

You don’t see the point? What, exactly, do you think this thread is about?

[bup]

@gracer

I do reject that concept [of divided locker rooms], because it’s a silly concept to begin with. Oh, I know it’s what everybody is comfortable with now and everyone would get their knickers in a twist if it were suddenly changed. But let’s be honest: penised people having to go into a different cubicle in a different room from vaginaed people is just silly.

Well, that’s fine. If we as a society get rid of the whole thing, no problem. But as long as we have gender-divided locker rooms and bathrooms and have women’s only gyms and so forth, I think it’s unfair to slam a particular private establishment for the way they identify gender. They have no way to tell if a person is a sincere transgender, or just a man trying to get into the women’s locker room.

[treis]

@DocCathode

If answering the question wouldn’t refute your contention, then why not answer the question? What room should Buck use?

Why don’t you address my point instead of asking random questions?

@DocCathode

Further, kindly define the words “sex” and “gender”

Is there a shortage of dictionaries where you are?

@Miller

You don’t see the point? What, exactly, do you think this thread is about?

No, I don’t see the point of asking questions that don’t address my point.

Now, if you are all done, why don’t you actually address my argument?

[DocCathode]

@treis

Is there a shortage of dictionaries where you are?

I know what the terms mean. I was asking to see if you know what they mean. As of this post, I’m still waiting to see if you do.

[treis]

@DocCathode

I know what the terms mean. I was asking to see if you know what they mean. As of this post, I’m still waiting to see if you do.

Yes, I know what sex and gender are. Now, why don’t you actually address my point. Do you think locker rooms are sex or gender segregated?

[DocCathode]

@treis

Yes, I know what sex and gender are.

Then define them

Now, why don’t you actually address my point. Do you think locker rooms are sex or gender segregated?

There’s no point in doing that until we can be sure we’re working on the same definitions of those terms.

[Miller]

@treis

No, I don’t see the point of asking questions that don’t address my point.

Now, if you are all done, why don’t you actually address my argument?

I’m not sure how I can give a better response to your argument than DocCathode has already done here, and I’m honestly at a loss as to why you think his response was off topic or irrelevant.

[treis]

@Miller

I’m not sure how I can give a better response to your argument than DocCathode has already done here, and I’m honestly at a loss as to why you think his response was off topic or irrelevant.

Because it doesn’t address my one simple point. People in this thread have been calling locker rooms “gender divided”, when this is clearly not the case. Locker rooms are divided by sex, not gender. So a germane response would be “Yes, that’s right” or "No, gender is what is important because __________ ". Saying “But what about people who aren’t 100% male or female” doesn’t address the point.

[Miller]

@treis

Because it doesn’t address my one simple point. People in this thread have been calling locker rooms “gender divided”, when this is clearly not the case. Locker rooms are divided by sex, not gender. So a germane response would be “Yes, that’s right” or "No, gender is what is important because __________ ". Saying “But what about people who aren’t 100% male or female” doesn’t address the point.

I don’t understand why you think this is an important distinction in this conversation.

[treis]

@Miller

I don’t understand why you think this is an important distinction in this conversation.

It’s the crux of the issue. If I am a male that identifies as a women, which locker room am I supposed to use? If they are segregated by sex, I should use the men’s, and if they are segregated by gender I should use the women’s.

It’s the essential issue of the OP. Say her friend is a male that identifies as a female. If the locker rooms are sex segregated, and she used the women’s locker room, then she was justifiably bounced for violating the spa’s rules. If they are gender segregated, and she used the women’s locker room, then she was bounced because the spa didn’t recognize her preferred gender identification.

[Myrnalene]

@Anaamika

Looking at that picture, he looks very much like a man. He has tats like a man, poses like a man, has his head shaved like a man, muscles like a man: all of the cultural symbols that define a man. He doesn’t look like he’s in doubt or trying to be a woman; he looks like he’s trying to be a man. I would hope he would have some discretion, but yes, he has a right to use the woman’s room.

How very generous of you to allow him a “right” to something that he almost certainly does not want.

ETA: Are people ever going to learn not to say things like “a man that identifies as a woman”?

[VinylTurnip]

So I was thinking of declawing my cat, but I don’t want to spend the money for a vet so I’m just planning to do it myself with a pair of pliers. Any advice?

[billfish678]

Bathrooms. Do you business and get out. Pretty easy to not flaunt your parts and pretty hard to glimpse others even if you try. As long as you look like a dressed man in the mens room or dressed woman in the womans room you are good to go.

Saunas and spas where nudity is the norm. Its the exact opposite.

Why are folks even bringing up bathrooms?