Why does it matter that it may make the cis-gendered uncomfortable? Being around gay men makes me uncomfortable. Doesn’t mean I don’t realize that it’s my inherent bigotry causing that, and thus I have no right to insist that the other person accommodate my bigotry by leaving.
The only way you are ever going to become comfortable with the concept is if you don’t run away when the situation happens. You’re not going to lose that last bit of bigotry in you if you insist that the other person did something wrong by being there. You do agree that bigotry is wrong, right? So don’t embrace your own.
Now, I don’t know if that means the OP shouldn’t go there, as, I agree, it seems like an odd thing for the trans person to not only be kicked out but also without a refund. That screams that they did something wrong, and only more information will tell you what happened. But if it was because of the owners’ bigotry, then it depends on whether you think your own personal comfort is worth more than giving money that will enable bigots who aren’t remotely sorry for what they are.
And, Anamika, you get to be comfortable when you get rid of your bigotry. The only excuse I find compelling is rape, and even then I find myself leaning on the side that said people should either accept the risk or not attend. It’s not as if the nudity is actually an important part of the experience, and it’s not as if there are not non-nude spas out there. The dressing room is the only problem, and it’s trivial to dress at home.
Now, knowing how many bigots there are, I would suggest that untransitioned trans people avoid going completely nude, but that’s the realist in me, and does not mean that I think I have the right to force the issue. I only have the right to force issues when immorality is involved, and disrobing in a place designed for disrobing is not immoral.
None of this is even remotely relevant to this thread. I mean, you might be right that most restrooms and locker rooms are segregated by sex, and that’s why trans people should use the other bathroom, but who gives a shit? Why do you think that particular fact is important to anyone involved in this thread?
I mean, I think that a transwoman should use the woman’s locker room. Anaamika thinks she should use the men. If you proved, conclusively and unarguably, that locker rooms are segregated by sex, and not by gender, would you expect that fact to change my opinion on the issue? Conversely, if I could prove that locker rooms are segregated by gender, do you think that fact alone would make Anaamika change her mind?
It might be relevant if we were arguing this as a matter of law, where how the statute is worded determines whether the spa is liable to legal or civil punishment, but no one is talking about what the legalities are, we’re talking about what the social conventions should be. The distinction between sex segregation and gender segregation is utterly meaningless to this discussion.
No joke: every single time in this thread where I’ve written “locker room,” I’ve first written “bathroom” by mistake and had to go back to fix it before I hit submit.
I’m quite sure, in fact this board has made it quite clear that there are men who are not comfortable sharing locker rooms with gay men, to put it politely. Whose personal comfort should be paramount? Mine? Theirs? What makes this situation different than a transperson’s?
Remember, by the way, so far we have a foaf story of a transperson getting kicked out of a particularly unusual (for americans) spa and I believe, Una mentioned a transwoman who stood up to pee in a stall not realizing how that might look to others in the bathroom. That’s 2 events (barely) in the collective lives of everyone participating in this thread who’ve felt it was necessary to share. I think as far as the potential for abuse goes, this is way down on the list.
When a very real reaction to ‘attention seeking’ even in places like America is beating, sexual assault, or even death, people learn very quickly to knock that stuff off or restrict it to extremely safe environments.
Because they made it a point to specify that the division is gender. Obviously that’s an important distinction. Because if locker room’s were gender-segregated, then according to the mores of the enlightened Doper the spa’s actions are ipso facto wrong.
I think it’s important to be clear about the burden of proof, so to speak. Locker rooms, in this country at least, have been sex segregated since there has been locker rooms. Generally speaking, those advocating for change have to put forth the argument why the change is better. Thus far in this thread, it simply seems to have been accepted that Anaamika’s feelings are wrong.
As for me, if I were alone in a communal shower and a naked female walked it, I would be confused and consternated. My immediate thought is not going to be “Wow, isn’t it great that this transgendered woman is comfortable with himself”. It’s going to be “Why is this woman acting in flagrant violation of the rules and what is wrong with her?” (Or more realistically “Oh fuck, am I in the wrong locker room”).
If I put myself in the perspective of a 5’5" 125 pound woman showering alone when a 6’1 215 pound male walks in the shower, the reaction is going to be much stronger. More along the lines of “Holy shit, I’m about to be raped”.
I await your reasoning why I should be able to walk into a school with a fake but realistic looking “assualt” weapon. In sex segregated places people freak out when it looks like the wrong physical sex walks in. Its not the ACTUAL threat. Its the APPARENT threat.
From this thread, it seems that for some the answer is that they should stay at home with the curtains drawn and not socialize with all the normal, God-fearing Americans.
A very similar discussion could have occurred in 1948 on the vacuum tube-driven SDMB, as to whether or not a “colored woman” should have been allowed into a white woman’s spa, as her very presence was giving some of the ladies the vapors and upsetting them ever-so-much.
Comparing transgendered people to minority ethnicities is a false analogy.
Our society accepts the premise that genders should be segregated.
A transgendered person is still their original gender. Just because they suffer a mental disorder and have surgically altered their genitals does not change their gender.
And FWIW, if I told my psychiatrist I thought I “should” be Batman, he would throw me in a padded room, not give me a Batmobile. Just because a person has a mental disorder does not mean the rest of us should be party to letting them act out their delusion… no matter how many drugs and surgeries they think they need.
I’ve got nothing of value to add to the sex /gender debate, nor on what actually happened.
But I would like to note, that it’s not beyond the bounds of possiblity that the person in question is post op / fully transitioned and thus unquestionably using the “correct” locker room but was outed to management by someone that knows her and then booted unceremoniously.
It strikes me as a possibility that maybe the person in question is post op, but not yet legally changed name, and for whatever reason a “male” name was noticed in the female room and thus booted unfairly.
As to whether or not to give the spa my money - I’d reserve judgement until I felt I had a good factualy handle on the situation.
