Great topic. I am glad that everyone here is accepting and open minded. I think everyone should live whatever way they want to, or have to. I respect everybody.
I saw one comment that said that gay males are not interested in F-M transexuals. ok. ( But I didnt see the converse unless I missed it somewhere)
What about lesbians?
How do lesbians feel about M-F transexuals? Are any lesbians attracted to M-F transexsuals and do they treat them as women?
Susanann, there are gay males who are interested in FTM transsexuals; I used to know quite well the natal male of one such couple.
As for MTFs, my partner (a natal woman) is bisexual; as far as I can tell, she treats me as a woman (and is rather insistent that others do, too). And I know quite a few other lesbian couples where one (or even both) partners are MTF, and everyone is a woman.
This is not to say that all lesbians accept MTF transsexuals as women; to be sure, there are many lesbians who do not. But as your question asked if any lesbians were attracted to MTF transsexuals, the answer is yes, and, yes, at least some of them treat them as women.
KellyM, thank you for answering my question.
Ok, how about M-F transexuals being attracted to F-M transexuals(and vice versa)?
Does that happen very often? and do we have equal numbers of M-F and F-M?
(This sounds like a great solution if we had enough of both and they could be attracted to each other)
I can see a good point in this, since they could get legally married in all 50 states.
(no offense to anyone, I support everyone regardless of gender or gender preference, and I just want to understand better)
I think I can guess the answer?(the answer probably is that everybody is an individual, and everybody has personal preferences?)
I have seen this topic discussed on other websites and it got really nasty, everyone is behaving ok here I think, even if we all dont agree.
Susanann, indeed, every combination you can think of, and probably quite a few that you haven’t, has almost undoubtedly been accomplished at some time or another. I have heard of FTM/MTF pairings, although I don’t know of any personally. I have even heard rumor of a marriage in which both spouses underwent reassignment – and neither of them had plans to at the time they got married.
It is my understanding that MTFs outnumber FTMs by about four to one. Setting that complication aside, I don’t see why you think it would be a good “solution” for MTFs and FTMs to pair off – or even what problem it would purportedly solve.
I suppose that’s me, Susanann, who talked about that, it was in relation to my own experience in the context of online dating, my experience in real life was a bit better and I hope it to get better the further I’m masculinized, but once again, it’s my experience, other are luckier, others have it worst.
And some of them are highly attracted to us.
I would say that most of them don’t even know gay ftms exist though. Hell, some people don’t even know that ftms exist!
But to make matters more complex, there are also lesbians who really dig ftms.
They call themselves “transsensual femmes” and usually say to be attracted to “butches and trannyboys”.
And no, they usually don’t date transwomen.
I think it’s the moment to remind people that not all ftms are masculine, I know quite a few very effeminate ones.
Effeminate ftms can be prejudiced and seen as “not real” within our community and among non-trans folks, I guess people still have this “if you say you are a guy, prove it, be manly” idea.
The same goes in inverse for mtfs.
And in my own understanding, there are equal numbers of ftms and mtfs, but it depends of how you are counting, if you only count the number of srs, then indeed there are more mtfs than ftms going through.
JerseyDiamond
Don’t worry, Jersey. You won’t. Gender is what people appear to be. Sex is what they got in they drawers. (Figuratively speaking.)
Sorry to be a bitch, but this is one of my major pet peeves. Gender is a social construct. Sex is biology. Some people change their gender by changing the way they live. Some people feel the need to go further. Advocacy groups in different times and places like to have new terms and what have you, and there are few cases in general conversation where gender and sex aren’t interchangeable terms, but it’s important to remember the terms mean different things. (Obviously, if the sexes weren’t different, surgery alone would be enough to make the change.)
A person who makes an unusual choice about the gender they choose, their political concerns are the same as someone one has gone all the way. However, their medical and legal situations differ. (Lazz’s link shows the minefield of legal issues for transsexual. It’s also crucial that a transsexual’s doctor and pharmacist know the truth. Even if the surgery was years and years ago in another town.)
For the questioners and all the women here, natal and otherwise: Being a woman means different things in different contexts. If you certain health problems, the symptoms used for diagnosis and the recommended treatment are different for men and women. But, you know, that’s medical care. None of us wears an ugly paper gown in regular life. People who identify as female, for whatever reason, are welcome in the women’s room.
Now I’ll refrain from making a catty remark about the big O rate in mtf transsexuals matching that of “natal” women!
As far as honesty up-front: sometimes people repress their feelings for years and year, get married, have children, a white picket fence… and then realize they can’t go on that way. This doesn’t mean the weren’t totally honest on the first date.
KellyM
Your raise 'em, they’re yours.
However, I have concerns about the idea of science proving this or that about sexuality and people’s attitudes. Why? I just put no stock in what people say. If you can’t put on it on a slide, it isn’t science. Anytime conclusions are based on reporting, I can’t give them much credibility. History is full of people who chose to live as a member of the opposite sex, and full of people who were happy with their sex, but not all that gung-ho about the gender roles of their times. It’s a big world. Some people like carrots and other people can’t abide them. Maybe there’s a complex biological reason for that… maybe it’s a combination of biological traits being expressed and personality.
And one more bitchy note. There’s a group on a message board I read who are quick to jump on anyone. Always on the defense. And here’s this long thread where people’s most deeply held beliefs are being questioned and yet the responses are all civil. Does that say something about the transsexual, transgender, bifriendly brain being more level-headed? 
JerseyDiamond
Don’t worry, Jersey. You won’t. Gender is what people appear to be. Sex is what they got in they drawers. (Figuratively speaking.)
Sorry to be a bitch, but this is one of my major pet peeves. Gender is a social construct. Sex is biology. Some people change their gender by changing the way they live. Some people feel the need to go further. Advocacy groups in different times and places like to have new terms and what have you, and there are few cases in general conversation where gender and sex aren’t interchangeable terms, but it’s important to remember the terms mean different things. (Obviously, if the sexes weren’t different, surgery alone would be enough to make the change.)
A person who makes an unusual choice about the gender they choose, their political concerns are the same as someone one has gone all the way. However, their medical and legal situations differ. (Lazz’s link shows the minefield of legal issues for transsexual. It’s also crucial that a transsexual’s doctor and pharmacist know the truth. Even if the surgery was years and years ago in another town.)
For the questioners and all the women here, natal and otherwise: Being a woman means different things in different contexts. If you certain health problems, the symptoms used for diagnosis and the recommended treatment are different for men and women. But, you know, that’s medical care. None of us wears an ugly paper gown in regular life. People who identify as female, for whatever reason, are welcome in the women’s room.
Now I’ll refrain from making a catty remark about the big O rate in mtf transsexuals matching that of “natal” women!
As far as honesty up-front: sometimes people repress their feelings for years and year, get married, have children, a white picket fence… and then realize they can’t go on that way. This doesn’t mean the weren’t totally honest on the first date.
KellyM
Your raise 'em, they’re yours.
However, I have concerns about the idea of science proving this or that about sexuality and people’s attitudes. Why? I just put no stock in what people say. If you can’t put on it on a slide, it isn’t science. Anytime conclusions are based on reporting, I can’t give them much credibility. History is full of people who chose to live as a member of the opposite sex, and full of people who were happy with their sex, but not all that gung-ho about the gender roles of their times. It’s a big world. Some people like carrots and other people can’t abide them. Maybe there’s a complex biological reason for that… maybe it’s a combination of biological traits being expressed and personality.
And one more bitchy note. There’s a group on a message board I read who are quick to jump on anyone. Always on the defense. And here’s this long thread where peoples’ most deeply held beliefs are being questioned and yet the responses are all civil. Does that say something about the transsexual, transgender, bifriendly brain being more level-headed?
Actually, Kelly, the new book How Sex Changedi states that the ratio of MtF and FtM is about 50/50. The dearth of reported FtMs was simply because the surgery was pretty inept till recently. Now they are requesting it in greater numbers.
The fact that it’s about 50/50 also indicates that it’s a physical, not social or emotional, problem.
Stories For Free Children
The tales in this book are designed to mold kids into open minded liberals. It worked on me.
The story, A Baby Named X, is relevant here. X is given no other name. X's parents avoid using gender specific toys, clothing etc. IIRC this is part of a sociological experiment to see if X can grow up without serious psychological damage. Naturally, X does.
Libido Femina Sexualis
(the words may be in the wrong order)
I found this book when I was 10 or so. Besides sections on life cycle, standards of beauty in different cultures, and others, it had a section on intersexed individuals.
Those 2 books started me on a quest to discover the nature of gender.
So far, I’ve learned-
It isn't determined by chromosomes.
An XY fetus with androgen insensitivity will be born with female genitals. This person will identify and be identified as female. Eventually, the individual will fail to undergo menarche. The doctor will discover the AIS. Does this invalidate the F on the birth certificate, or the all the years the person has identified as a woman?
What about Turner’s Syndrome? These people are born XO. The same visit to the doctor will uncover this.
Kleinfelter’s Syndrome leads to XXY men.
It isn’t determined by genitals.
The number of things that can cause ambiguous genitalia and the ways in which they can be ambiguous is too large to go into here.
It isn’t determined by internal organs.
See above.
There ARE studies that show gender is a product of the brain. Naturally, a female brain a male body would feel like a woman in man’s body.
Eve-It would make me a lot happier if you threw yourself under a train-The Kosher Locomotive!
Cuz Eve’s not just a woman, she’s my kind of woman!
It was someone on this forum who started with the ‘any body I had growing up was female because I was female on the inside.’
I seem to remember saying it was the biological experiences I had that were important. Then again someone who was born male wouldn’t have ever had those experiences no matter how much surgery they had. It certainly wasn’t the attitude of those around me that caused menarche.
Not a whole lot is left other than biology if you discount those things. The same biology that causes girls to get periods and boys to get erections, no?
It’s not your existence, it’s your attitude that’s insulting. Although instead of building scarecrows, could you actually point out where I said anything remotely like wanting transsexual people to commit suicide?
No? Perhaps that’s because I never said such a thing.
More like ‘no denying physiological gender’, since it was Thiessen’s genes and the body that he was born with that made him a boy and not a girl, no matter how hard surgeons and psychiatrists tried to change that.
Accurate so far.
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along with cultural characteristics common to modern Western society.
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Here’s where it gets derailed. Cultural characterstics like what? Is menstruation cultural?
Nope. Never said that. I have said that there’s a range of variation that is not inclusive of ‘I’ve got testicles.’ when it comes to being female.
Demeaning? That’s someone with a penis telling me they know what demeans all women.
The only ones demanding tolerance are those who have insisted that I change who I am because they don’t like the body they were born in. If you’re right that it only matters what you are psychologically, then I really don’t see the need to have any kind of surgery since that plays into exactly the same ‘culturally stereotypical’ thing that you were knocking in the first half of your post. If the cultural stereotype thing is wrong, why is it necessary to go to such lengths to put out the stereotyped appearance for a personality? Before you go off on another scarecrow mission claiming that I buy into the cultural stereotype of what makes someone a woman, I’ll flat out tell you that I don’t. If you put me up against the western ‘this is what a woman is’ marker of social behaviors, I’d defintely not come off looking like one. I hunt, fish, don’t own makeup, would rather watch war movies than chick flicks, and will only shop in the men’s department. If someone had to guess my gender based only on my hobbies, they would probably peg me for a guy. I’m not a guy though, because I was born with this female body that has these biological features like ovaries and a uterus and breasts and a narrower-at-the-waist distribution of body fat. Culture can say my hobbies are more ‘masculine’ than ‘feminine’ all damn day long, it won’t matter, because to me it’s not some culturally defined ‘boys do these hobbies’ and ‘girls do these hobbies’ that made me a woman. What made me a woman is the organs I was born with, and if you don’t want to tolerate that, I don’t give a flying flip. Just don’t expect me to change everything I feel because you built a few strawmen and called me a bigot.
catsix, there have been a number of cites posted to this and other threads noting that the seat of gender identity is in the brain. It seems to me that ignoring this is doing the “ignoring biology” that you are accusing other people of doing. “What organs you were born with” does happen to include your brain.
Further, I haven’t had any of the experiences you cited in your original post as being essential to the experience of growing up as a woman. (It’s very hard to have one’s bra snap strapped if one never wears the damn things.) It certainly seemed plausible to me that you were dismissing the experiences of the transfolks for superficial reasons.
You can say that it’s insulting to claim to be female without having had the experiences that you consider essential to your female-ness all you like, but this particular natal woman who didn’t have those experiences does not consider this a well-supported point.
Well, I’d like to thank catsix for showing the being a born-again Christian has nothing to do with pig-headedness, rudeness and self-righteousness. She’s an atheist and there’s no difference between her and Joe_Cool!
You know what? I’m glad my existence offends, insults and demeans you. If there is anything I can do to further offend, insult and demean you, dear heart, please let me know, and I will go out of my way to do so.
But see, the problem is that I was born with these same exact organs, have known periods, what wearing bras entails, but yet I don’t consider myself to be a woman, and you have far more activities culturally pegged as masculine than me when it comes to gender expression.
And you are the one to consider yourself to be a woman. Not me.
So there must be something other to determine gender identity than the look of your reproductive system.
That’s the point I don’t understand in your reasoning, I don’t dismiss the importance you attach to biology in what makes you a woman, but I have a hard time to accept it is the sole and only thing that makes you one since my own experience goes against that.
And once again, Eve redefines words. Pig-headed, rude, and self-righteous now indicate “failure to fully acknowledge and subscribe to Eve’s point of view.” I wish I had that power.
Get off your cross, ok? If I allowed my eyes to roll appropriately to your martyr complex, they’d likely fall right out of my head. It’s your shitty, ME-centric attitude, and your demand for everybody to swallow your claims, lock stock and barrel, with zero appreciation for the fact that probably about 90% of the population agrees with the alternate viewpoint, and yours is the “icky,” weird one. So get over it, huh?
Take note: You’re certainly not winning any converts with the prissy and condescending way you speak to people who disagree with you. In fact, your attitude makes me even less interested in understanding your story than I already was to begin with.
Lazz and KellyM, Thanks a bunch for answering my questions, and thanks to everyone for keeping this discussion enjoyable and educational and civil.
(p.S.My comments on MTF marrying FTMs would eliminate some problems were because I heard of a transexual female in Texas, who was married, but who was denied her inheritance because the court later ruled that she could get her dead husbands money. After he died, the court ruled that they were not married. Her husband knew full well that she was a transexual before he married her, and wanted her to have his money when he died. I think it was dispicable that she was denied her husbands money, but I was only commenting on how our state laws are today. And yes, I know, we should change the laws for the real solution, but if a FTM married a MTF then no one could ever take away a rightful inheritance or deny them to adopt even under current law. )
If anyone presents himself to me as a man, I will treat him as a man, and if anyone presents herself to me as a woman, then I will treat her as a woman. That is all that is important, that is all anyone needs to know in any public or social setting.
catsix, that’s just an analogy. It’s not meant to be taken literally. Just saying, “well, maybe it’s like this.”
Sheesh. Must you always be so hostile?
From here on, I will be glad to answer any well-meant and honest questions. But there is obviously no getting through to people like catsix and Joe_Cool, who have made up their minds–or what passes for same–to be . . . well, I’m not going to insult them here. Just read their posts and let their words speak for themselves.
I feel no need to explain justify myself to people like that. Sadly, as Joe said, there are a lot of them, though I trust his estimate of 90% is overstated. The world can’t be that dark and dismal a place, surely, as seen by the largely intelligent and friendly discourse here.
Susanann, the inheritance case was in Kansas. The case in Texas was in the context of a lawsuit for wrongful death, where the transsexual widow sued as her husband’s survivor and the doctor’s insurance lawyers moved to declare their marriage a legal nullity in order to avoid paying for the doctor’s malpractice.
Dont ever think about suicide again! There are so many of us who consider you to be a man, and will treat you that way.
There is nothing to be ashamed of, you did not "do " anything.
(Evil, criminal, and discourteous people are the ones that need to be ashamed, not you)
Yeah, it may be disheartening to see things about your body that you dont like or feel handicapped by, but if you have two arms, two legs, if you are not blind, then you are blessed. Lots of people do things to change their bodies, making breasts bigger, smaller, plastic surgery everywhere, nose jobs, etc. You are still young, and what you need to have done is not as serious as being born without arms,etc. Just thank the lord for what you do have, and for what our doctors can help you with.
It’s entirely because of gender stereotypes that I have such a hard time with the notion that one’s ‘mind’, attitudes, actions, likes or dislikes are what makes one a man or a woman. It’s because I’ve spent my entire life being absolutely everything but what the entrenched cultural attitude of a woman is in my own personality, and I believe that my personality is without a gender at all that I don’t just enthusiastically accept the viewpoint that it’s a person’s mind that determines gender.
I’m a woman because of the body I am in, not because of the emotions I have, the hobbies I like, the fashion I like, the type of movies that’ll actually make me cry (i.e. I shed one tear when the soldier handed the pilot a gun in Blackhawk Down and said ‘Good Luck’ but not when the guy died in Titanic.) Telling me that gender is mind and not body is telling me to stop believing everything I’ve believed about who I am since I was a little kid, and I don’t think it’s bigoted at all for me to say that I don’t see things that way. I don’t stand in the way of anyone else defining themselves as they see fit, but I’m asking other people to understand the same thing. If you define yourself as a man or a woman because of your mind, fine. I’ll refer to you the way you want, I’ll treat you with respect, and nowhere will you ever hear me even suggest that you should throw yourself in front of a train. The only thing I’m going to ask of you is that you show the same level of respect for people like me, whose minds don’t fit the cultural stereotype of their physical gender, and who don’t think that means they’re not what their bodies indicate.
Did someone change the rules while we were out? Ad hominems are now allowed in GD?
Once again, I’ll say what I said before. It’s not your existence that is insulting. It’s the attitude you’re displaying right now. You must like scarecrows, you’ve built lots of them in this thread.
I consider myself a woman because all my life, when I had no clothes on, I saw girl parts.
Considering the names I’ve been called in this thread, I don’t think I’m being hostile at all. And the soul example doesn’t do much for someone who doesn’t believe they exist. It doesn’t help to explain anything.