Transsexual Question

[DocCathode]

*Originally posted by JerseyDiamond *
**An AIS situation is different than a young man deciding he wants to get his genitals cut off so he could be a girl. You cannot compare the two.

How can I answer the question when I think that the two abnormalities are different. I think that the AIS person was born with an abnormality, out of there control, and I think that a transgendered persons abnormality is psychological.
I think it is a struggle with reality for them.
**

An AIS woman is XY, genetically male. She has no ovaries or uterus. She will never undergo puberty or develop female secondary sexual characteristics without taking hormones.

And you accept this person as a woman?

But, an XY male with a functional reproductive system is irrevocably male to you?

If it were possible to give an individual a functional reproductive system as part of SRS, would a post op ftm to with functioning, sperm factory, testicles be a man to you? Or would they still just be a deluded woman?

[Kalhoun]

Eve, I know The J Twins think youze two have cooties, but I was referring more to how it feels when they converse with you on line. I never thought of either of you as anything but one of the girls. You give off a chick vibe. It doesn’t SEEM like I’m conversing with deranged guys who mutilated their bodies for the amusement of others. I guess that’s the point I’m trying to make. There are certain things that are just…I dunno…strictly “Chickley”.

[Una_Persson]

*Originally posted by JerseyDiamond *
**Not a fair characterization of my attitudes. I’m not talking about somebody who’s been sleeping with the trans for years and finally finding out that it’s not so, or having it sprung on them (“Honey, I was born a man!!”). I’m talking about the fact that I would not even consider a relationship with somebody who was not born the sex they appear to be. Period. I would not ask them out on a date, I would not hold hands, nothing. **

Just to clarify from this point on the prior page, I wasn’t trying to characterize the attitudes I mentioned as being yours, or shared by you.

However, I’m not certain where we go from here. Now that we’re talking nicely, we seem to come to a point where there are issues where neither one of us likely to convince the other on. Or, that is to say, I think there is much agreement on some issues, but other issues seem to be not reconcilable between our two respective positions.

I’ll recap what I think is the portion that we cannot agree upon, and you can tell me if that seems fair, Joe/Jersey/Um…whoever is logged on.

I feel that due to the social stigma, workplace discrimination, potential for violence and retribution, and basic fundamental right to privacy, that a trans person should not be expected to readily advertise their status to all concerned. Even on the semi-anonymous security of a message board like this, I still know of four transsexual/transgendered persons who have not “outed” themselves. (Well, OK, one left and hasn’t been posting for more than a year, but that leaves at least three.) (I think you agree with much of this w.r.t. privacy, but not all of it perhaps.)

I feel that it is understandable for a trans person to not come out and reveal this right away when in a dating/romantic situaiton, but that this can wait for some time, until the trans person feels safe in the relationship, or until a direct, unambiguous question is asked. (I think you feel that this should be up-front, immediate, and thus disagree)

I feel that a trans person is who they believe they are, and that this belief is not a passing fad or some temporarily delusion, but rather is a life-long self understanding which they have finally come to grips with, and have acted to try to resolve and reconcile themselves with their internal personality, psyche, and emotions. They have arrived at this not on their own but with the help of degreed, trained, medical professionals. And thus, therefore, they are female, or male, depending on the person’s particular situation. (I think you disagree that they should be considered their new gender).

As far as disappointment and unhappiness involving this discussion, my only real beef in this thread is that I feel that describing transsexuals as “icky” or using the qualifier “ickyness” is not nice, nor sensitive to them, who are fellow human beings who are being put through conditions and social pressures which not even gays and lesbians can equally appreciate without some trying.

I think that keeping this tone on a conversational and respectful level has helped to get the issues communicated properly, and allowed us to at least try to find where the other truly stands. If we want to discuss this further, or hash out fine points, I’m happy to continue in this vein.

[JerseyDiamond]

*Originally posted by Eve *
I think they have already made clear that they think of us as “icky,” mentally disturbed men who “take playing dress-up too far.” I don’t need to hear that again.

Eve, I don’t think you are “icky”, I think you are a person just like anyone else.

The only issue I have is that I would want to be informed if I was a potantial date for a transgendered person.

You don’t agree with my religious beliefs, and I know that you think that you think some of my religious beliefs are “icky”.

oh well.

You don’t need me to think you are a woman. You seem to be a happy person. As long as you don’t affect my life, I won’t affect yours, right?
Yes, KellyM, joe would throw me away if he found out I was genetically a male.

And you accept this person as a woman?

I accept this person has an abnormality, but still is genetically a man. If she/he was raised as a girl, it is out of her control. This is what she knows. If I was a man, I would not date her.

This is getting totally off the subject, unless of course the reason we are discussing this is because KellyM, Lazz, or Eve is an AIS baby.

The bottom line is that if you were born a man, you are a man, and if you were born a woman, you are a woman. You can think whatever you want.

If I get the skin around my eyes surgically altered and made to look like I am Japanese, that does not make me Japanese. It means I had a surgery to look like I am Japanese.

Kalhoun, when posting, I see Eve and KellyM as men. That doesn’t mean I hate them, it’s just how I see them.

To be quite honest, I met Eve one time. It was at my first dopefest, I believe.
I asked joe_cool, privately, if Eve was transgendered. It just seemed that way to me. I am not sure what quite gave it away.

Anyway, I guess I am finished with this particular discussion for now.

I don’t mean to hurt anyones feelings, it’s just the way I see things.

[KellyM]

JerseyDiamond, I am disappointed that you did not answer my question about what evidence would change your mind. Can you explain why you did not answer that question?

[Dr.Lao]

I guess the question is, if you’re a man and you’re dating someone who in every possible way through all your senses and your gut feeling presents herself as a woman you are attracted to, why should her chromosomes make any difference?

Whether I am attracted to someone physically or emotionally is certainly dependent on gender. But it is only on the gender they appear to be to me. How can it be any other way? I don’t find anything particularly attractive about having two X chromosomes instead of one, it just so happens that the vast majority of people I find attractive have that genotype.

[DocCathode]

*Originally posted by Dr. Lao *
**I guess the question is, if you’re a man and you’re dating someone who in every possible way through all your senses and your gut feeling presents herself as a woman you are attracted to, why should her chromosomes make any difference?

**

I was wondering this myself til I read this missive in Penthouse Forum

…As the candlelight spilled over her, they were revealed-firmer, bigger, more wonderful a pair than I had dared dream! I tentatively reached out a single finger to them. The contract was electric. I took one in each palm. My hands groped feverishly. I was holding heaven in each hand. I teased the left with my tongue. There was the sweet fire of champagne. But, beneath that I tasted her-sweeter and more firey. There was no doubt. Of all the pairs I’d seen, she had the most fabulous chromosomes ever!

[j.c]

Whether I am attracted to someone physically or emotionally is certainly dependent on gender. But it is only on the gender they appear to be to me. How can it be any other way? I don’t find anything particularly attractive about having two X chromosomes instead of one, it just so happens that the vast majority of people I find attractive have that genotype.

I am attracted to Dr. Lao! When I’m assessing outward physical characteristics, a level head is what I look for.
JerseyDiamond, instead of talking about surgery, let’s talk about adoption. During World War II, buckets of Polish orphans were adopted by American couples. Back then, adoption was often kept entirely secret. These children grew up in Detroit or Tucson or Portland or wherever, and grew up as and lived as … whatever. Because they were born Poles yet lived as Americans, does that mean their whole lives were a lie?

If you woke up tomorrow and realized that you feel, for whatever reason, that you want not only to live as a Japanese but have medical help with the skin color and eyes and other obvious outward characteristics, then why should I object? How could I? What’s it to me?

[KellyM]

j.c., let’s be fair here. The desire to change racial characteristics probably wouldn’t arise from a fundamental difference in brain morphology. It is not fair to equate that with transsexualism. Transsexualism is not a choice any more than being gay is a choice.

Of course, I imagine our fundamentalist friends believe that being gay is a choice, too, and so this is of no help to them. People are, sadly, entitled to their delusions.

[Eve]

“To be quite honest, I met Eve one time. It was at my first dopefest, I believe. I asked joe_cool, privately, if Eve was transgendered. It just seemed that way to me. I am not sure what quite gave it away . . . I don’t mean to hurt anyones feelings, it’s just the way I see things.”

–You know, Jersey, I don’t think you mean to be cruel. But even if you thought such a thing, what could have possessed you to post such a thing? There’s point where “honesty” becomes unforgivable cruelty, and you have passed it. I know that what you say shouldn’t effect me; I am a happy person–I know who and what I am.

But do you see how you have just slapped me in the face? Would you go up to an overweight person and say, “Gee, you are one huge, fat pig?” Is that what your Christianity teaches you? You insulted me in a way that . . . I really don’t feel like going on with this conversation. I need to go have a cup of tea now . . .

[Susanann]

I watch court tv all the time and monitor their website.

This was the featured news story today, I thought it might be relevent to this topic.

---

Florida transsexual granted custody of children
Wednesday, April 2, 2003

Michael Kantaras was granted custody of his children Friday after a year-long wait.

By Matt Bean
Court TV
A Florida transsexual was granted primary custody of his two children Friday after a judge delivered a sweeping 800-page written decision that answered, for now, the question of just what makes a man under the law.

According to the decision, Michael Kantaras, who had breast removal surgery and hormone therapy to swap genders, is indeed a man and therefore his marriage, and custody claim, were valid in Florida, which does not recognize same-sex marriages.

“Chromosomes are only one factor in the determination of sex and they do not overrule gender or self-identity which is the true test or identifying mark of sex,” wrote Pasco County Judge Gerard O’Brien. “Michael has always, for a lifetime, had a self-identity as a male.”

O’Brien’s ruling stands to impact much more than one family’s insular custody battle. “It’s a complete victory for Michael Kantaras, and it’s a victory for all transsexuals,” said Kantaras’ attorney, Collin Vause.

Under the ruling, Linda Kantaras, 34, will have visitation rights to Matthew, 13, and Irina, 11, every other weekend. Her lawyer, Claudia Wheeler, had argued that Michael Kantaras, who still had female-like genitilia, was not legally a man and that their marriage was null and void. A woman at Wheeler’s office said the lawyer was unavailable for comment Friday.

Judge O’Brien’s written decision was more than a year in the making. Lawyers delivered closing arguments more than a year ago after a bitter courtroom battle that focused largely on Kantaras’ anatomy and his lifestyle as a transsexual. Court TV covered the trial live.

Karen Doering, Michael Kantaras’ co-counsel and staff attorney at the National Center for Lesbian Rights, called Wheeler’s caveat “just silly.” “I think this is a very very positive sign,” she told Court TV Friday. “This is the first case to thoroughly examine the medical aspects of transsexualism.”

“I think [the case] was really groundbreaking on both a legal and a cultural level,” said Cathy Renna, news director with the Gay & Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation (GLAAD). “For once this was a story that took transgender people out of the abstract and gave them a chance to really speak about their lives.”

For the entire article(I am not allowed to post an entire article), go to :

http://courttv.com/trials/kantaras/verdict_ctv.html

[Joe_Cool]

*Originally posted by Anthracite *
**Just to clarify from this point on the prior page, I wasn’t trying to characterize the attitudes I mentioned as being yours, or shared by you.

However, I’m not certain where we go from here. Now that we’re talking nicely, we seem to come to a point where there are issues where neither one of us likely to convince the other on. Or, that is to say, I think there is much agreement on some issues, but other issues seem to be not reconcilable between our two respective positions.

I’ll recap what I think is the portion that we cannot agree upon, and you can tell me if that seems fair, Joe/Jersey/Um…whoever is logged on.

I feel that due to the social stigma, workplace discrimination, potential for violence and retribution, and basic fundamental right to privacy, that a trans person should not be expected to readily advertise their status to all concerned. Even on the semi-anonymous security of a message board like this, I still know of four transsexual/transgendered persons who have not “outed” themselves. (Well, OK, one left and hasn’t been posting for more than a year, but that leaves at least three.) (I think you agree with much of this w.r.t. privacy, but not all of it perhaps.)**

Up to here, I’m right with you. Like I said, it’s none of anybody’s business who isn’t directly involved.

I feel that it is understandable for a trans person to not come out and reveal this right away when in a dating/romantic situaiton, but that this can wait for some time, until the trans person feels safe in the relationship, or until a direct, unambiguous question is asked. (I think you feel that this should be up-front, immediate, and thus disagree)

Here I do not agree. When things look like they might start progressing in a romantic direction, the person who is (IMO) advertising falsely should begin thinking about how they intend to reveal the truth to the person they are contemplating dating. When the conversation turns to “I think you’re pretty cool/smart/attractive/whatever, would you like to go out on a date?” at that point the honest response is “sure, but first, there’s something you should know.”

I feel that a trans person is who they believe they are, and that this belief is not a passing fad or some temporarily delusion, but rather is a life-long self understanding which they have finally come to grips with, and have acted to try to resolve and reconcile themselves with their internal personality, psyche, and emotions. They have arrived at this not on their own but with the help of degreed, trained, medical professionals. And thus, therefore, they are female, or male, depending on the person’s particular situation. (I think you disagree that they should be considered their new gender).

You assess my disagreement accurately. My hypothetical lifelong self-understanding that I am an orangutan doesn’t make me one. For the record, I don’t dispute that people may sincerely believe that they were born in the wrong body. Heck, I think I was born in the wrong era (I would have made a great Samurai. :D).

As far as disappointment and unhappiness involving this discussion, my only real beef in this thread is that I feel that describing transsexuals as “icky” or using the qualifier “ickyness” is not nice, nor sensitive to them, who are fellow human beings who are being put through conditions and social pressures which not even gays and lesbians can equally appreciate without some trying.

Well, I’m sorry. I don’t generally mince words, but I wasn’t trying to offend anybody. I think we can all agree that if I wanted to act like an asshole and be mean, “Icky” and “weird” are not likely the terms I would have chosen. If I really thought I was an orangutan, people would (rightly) think I was insane, and I might even end up in the looney bin. The one place I can guarantee I would NOT end up is the ape exhibit at the local zoo. That’s the point I’m making. That a person believes something in utter sincerity and with all their hearts that they are one thing or another, but that doesn’t make it so. And no matter how much somebody believes that they are female or male, it doesn’t change reality.

Just out of curiosity, if you were single and searching, would you (knowingly) date an MtoF?

Originally posted by j.c.
JerseyDiamond, instead of talking about surgery, let’s talk about adoption. During World War II, buckets of Polish orphans were adopted by American couples. Back then, adoption was often kept entirely secret. These children grew up in Detroit or Tucson or Portland or wherever, and grew up as and lived as … whatever. Because they were born Poles yet lived as Americans, does that mean their whole lives were a lie?

Huh? What does that have to do with anything? Ok, here you go: America is made up of 100% immigrants. Nationality has nothing to do with biology. There ARE Americans of Polish, Japanese, Indian, Russian, and Chinese descent. So what?

Originally posted by tracer
And if we replaced every cell of your body with an orangutan cell, one at a time, until no human cells were left and only oragutan cells remained, would you still be a human then?

Uh, this may be the stupidest question I’ve ever seen. Before I answer that, tell me this: Are any of the trans people who are the topic of this conversation having every cell in their bodies replaced with cells of the opposite sex?

Originally posted by Eve
**“To be quite honest, I met Eve one time. It was at my first dopefest, I believe. I asked joe_cool, privately, if Eve was transgendered. It just seemed that way to me. I am not sure what quite gave it away . . . I don’t mean to hurt anyones feelings, it’s just the way I see things.”

–You know, Jersey, I don’t think you mean to be cruel. But even if you thought such a thing, what could have possessed you to post such a thing? There’s point where “honesty” becomes unforgivable cruelty, and you have passed it. I know that what you say shouldn’t effect me; I am a happy person–I know who and what I am.

But do you see how you have just slapped me in the face? Would you go up to an overweight person and say, “Gee, you are one huge, fat pig?” Is that what your Christianity teaches you? You insulted me in a way that . . . I really don’t feel like going on with this conversation. I need to go have a cup of tea now . . .**

If transsexualilty really is normal, then why the horror at being identified as what you really are? Be PROUD of what you are. It’s a sliding scale, isn’t it? Accept that you’re not fully at the “female” end of the scale. You were born male (as opposed to masculine, per the preferred terminology as stated in this very thread), so what makes you think you’re above any trace of maleness? No matter how prissy and victorian you act, it doesn’t change your biology. Her posting that wasn’t intended to be cruel. Not even close. Somebody asked how she perceives you and KellyM, and she answered.

Enjoy your tea.

Originally posted by KellyM
People are, sadly, entitled to their delusions.

My thoughts exactly. :rolleyes:

[Sterra]

*Originally posted by Joe_Cool *
**No matter how prissy and victorian you act, it doesn’t change your biology. Her posting that wasn’t intended to be cruel. Not even close. Somebody asked how she perceives you and KellyM, and she answered. **

From a Christian perspective both your intentions and the effects of what you do matter. You can choose to be cruel all you want and show that you don’t care about Eve’s feelings, but at the end of the day that is what you are. JerseyDiamond I think at least cares about people.

[Guinastasia]

Here I do not agree. When things look like they might start progressing in a romantic direction, the person who is (IMO) advertising falsely should begin thinking about how they intend to reveal the truth to the person they are contemplating dating. When the conversation turns to “I think you’re pretty cool/smart/attractive/whatever, would you like to go out on a date?” at that point the honest response is “sure, but first, there’s something you should know.”

And Joe, how would you honestly respond? Would you say, "Well, you know, I have to say I don’t think I can truthfully deal with this. " Or something like that?

Or would you tell the person that they’re sick, or “icky?”

[Guinastasia]

Oh, and I’m with Eve, Jersey. That was downright cruel.

I actually still find it hard to believe that Eve was not a “natal” woman (is that the right term?). She’s always so ladylike.

[Priam]

You know what?
I’m sitting here stunned, just shocked. Not for the reasons a lot of you are. I’ve come to expect that some people are probably beyond reach from where I stand. The gap between their understanding and mine is too wide. Its just the way things are at times, and we all just have to move on with our lives and relationships as best we can.

What I’m stunned about is the flat out statement that one person would throw aside another who they claim to love deeply, and seem to be loved back just as deeply. That just strikes me as a devaluation of the ties that bind. I can honestly say that there is no one thing a person could do or be that would make me cast them aside out of hand. I’m even more certain if I had grown to love that person over time.

I just don’t get the mindset. And I don’t think I ever will.

[Guinastasia]

Well, I would think if say, you found out your husband was really a woman-who had never had surgery, and lied to you, saying he was injured in the war, and stuff. Yeah, that would piss me off.

But I’d be more angry about the fact that they betrayed my trust than I would anything else. You know?

(I’m thinking of the Billy Tipton case. While I feel for the guy, I also feel bad that he lied to the woman he married).

[Priam]

*Originally posted by Joe_Cool *
**If transsexualilty really is normal, then why the horror at being identified as what you really are? Be PROUD of what you are. **

Wave “hi” to Mr. Fist, sir. When you know enough people who have waved “hi” to him and/or his buddies often enough, you gain a certain desire to avoid it yourself. It isn’t horror about being known for who you are. Its concern for one’s own safety. If society would stop making honesty such a dangerous, and potentially deadly, thing then maybe we’d see a lot more of it.

[Priam]

*Originally posted by Guinastasia *
**Well, I would think if say, you found out your husband was really a woman-who had never had surgery, and lied to you, saying he was injured in the war, and stuff. Yeah, that would piss me off.

But I’d be more angry about the fact that they betrayed my trust than I would anything else. You know?

(I’m thinking of the Billy Tipton case. While I feel for the guy, I also feel bad that he lied to the woman he married). **

My point wasn’t that I’d be perfectly cool and calm. Just that I could never simply throw someone out of my life for any reason. Maybe the relationship would end, maybe it wouldn’t, but burning so many bridges all at once? No. Absolutely not.

[Guinastasia]

Yeah, I know what you mean. I don’t think it would happen all at once. Probably a gradual breakdown, MAYBE.

I dunno.