sorry about the mispellings, birth control pills make you type funny…
Actually not for ftms and very masculine women. 
I never had any problem using the men’s room, but you should have seen some of the glares I’ve been shot at in the women’s.
Oh my!
Hmmm . . . Does this mean I agree with Vanilla but have a minor semantics disagreement with Kelly?
[brain explodes]
P.S. Our “disagreement,” Kelly, is purely temporary semantics—of course I agree that you are psychologically, mentally, emotionally and socially female. And a bit of corrective surgery will take care of all else!
Eve, the plumbing “down below” isn’t what makes me a woman anyway. I was born with my hypothalamus and all those other other brain structures the way they are, wasn’t I? Surgery’s not going to change any of that. And it’s my belief that whatever it is that makes me a woman is more likely to come from those brain structures than anything as superficial as my genitals. Reassignment surgery isn’t going to make me a woman any more than hormore replacement or laser hair removal did. If I wasn’t a woman, I would have never needed those things anyway.
Well, since I’m meeting Eve for drinks next week in NYC, I shall request a kiss to see if I am consumed by flames, as Semele, Dionysus’s mother, was consumed after seeing Zeus in his full glory.
Oh, Kelly, dear, I agree with you! There’s just one unfortunate “birth defect” which has to be corrected, and then everything will be reet-skeet.
Gobear, Beware:
That red-hot mamma that you heard about
Took a look at me and her fire went out!
I’m a gal who’s hard to find—
The red-hot flaming kind!
Got heatin’ stove for Christmas from a guy named Dan,
Hadda take it back, change it for a 'lectric fan—
‘Cause I’m the last of the red-hot mammas,
I’m gettin’ hotter all the time!
Eve, I wish. I really wish I could have children of my own, and there’s nothing I can do to accomplish that. Not that that’s unique to me; there are lots of infertile women out there who would do almost anything to be able to get pregnant, even down to those crazy Saudis and their uterine transplants.
Oh, and swear that in my entire life I have never seen the term “reet-skeet” before.
Gotta love Sophie Tucker!
Joe_Cool continues to miss the point. Transgendered people are not “passing” as members of the opposite sex–they are members of the opposite sex! The latest medical research shows that sexual identity is found in the hypothalamus, and that some people are brain with a brain that tells them they are one gender and a body that tells them they are another. SRS is not a mutilation, but a repair of something that was broken.
In any event, I cannot see Joe_Cool’s oft reiterated point that a transgendered person should reveal that fact on a first date, as if it were contagious. Eve and KellyM are not men pretending to be women; they are women, completely and totally and have been since they were born. The brain is what determines gender identity, not the plumbing.
I genuinely wish that Joe_Cool and Jersey Diamond would bother to learn about issues of sexuality and gender so that they will post from knowledge, not assumptions.
A reading list might help the two of them to attain understanding and empathy:
As nature made him : the boy who was raised as a girl, John Colapinto
Crossing: A memoir, Deirdre McCloskey
Conundrum, Jan Morris
Shoot, that should read “some people are born with a brain that tells them they are one gender and a body that tells them they are another.”
You’re right. I made an incorrect assumption without reading your post clearly. I totally and unabashedly apologize.
Vicious nastiness? Because I think it’s despicable to deceive people in a dating situation? Because I think the person you’re contemplating a relationship deserves to know that you were born male? Or is it because I don’t accept what you tell me about your sexuality? Whatever. I haven’t been vicious or nasty, and I haven’t attacked anybody. Do I believe this whole thing is silly? Yes, and I said so. To me, it’s a big, far too serious game of dress-up. But that’s not vicious - it’s my opinion. If you think that is viciousness, then you must have lived a very sheltered life, because you evidently have no clue what the word means. I’m sure gobear would be glad to explain it to you from his past experience.
If you want to believe you’re a real woman, that’s your prerogative. I don’t agree, and that is mine.
My big thing here is that I’m disgusted by the fact that you and others think it’s ok to deceive people you date (hypothetically speaking, of course. I know you’re in a relationship where everybody knows and is cool with it), and that there’s no moral obligation to disclose the truth to somebody in a relationship.
I have a question.
Can transgendered people join the military, or are they not allowed, and why?
C’mon, man, are you saying that you can read these statements and say they are not nasty little digs? You can’t disclaim the tenor of your comments by saying, "But that’s not vicious - it’s my opinion. " You can express your opinion and still be civil and respectful, something so far you have not done.
I have not read anyone in this thread advocating deception in a relationship. You seem to think that transgendered people should announce their status in every introduction (“Hi, I’m Eve, transexual. A pleasure to meet you.”) Don’t you think that the discussion, or more pertinently, The Discussion, happens at some point? Are you getting your opinions from watching the transexuals on Jerry Springer? That’s no basis to get an idea of how civilized people behave.
I used to think as you do that trangered people were merely engaging in a more through version of drag, but as I read about gender dysmorphia and met transgendered folk, I understood that the condition is real and that SRS is in essence repairing a birth defect. As research continues, I am sure that it will be found that during pregnancy the genetic triggers that determine a baby’s gender misfire, causing a child to be born with the brain of one gender and the plumbing of another.
“As research continues, I am sure that it will be found that during pregnancy the genetic triggers that determine a baby’s gender misfire, causing a child to be born with the brain of one gender and the plumbing of another.”
—Pretty much on-target, judging by current research. My mother, for instance, was given DES during her 7th week of pregnancy with me.
Is there any medical/scientific proof now, that a baby can be born a certain sex, but they are, in reality, the opposite sex?
DES can cause abnormalities in a sons testicle, possibly making them more at risk for
testicular cancer, but this isn’t even certain.
I have not seen any research saying it has anything to do with a person being transgendered.
Do you have anything on that?
KellyM, I think you’re really misunderstanding vanilla. She’s trying to understand, and she’s also one of the most easy-going, friendly and understanding posters around.
The reason I asked about hysterectomies-do you still get your periods? (Well, with male hormones, probably not, but still).
(That’s probably the only thing I hate about being female.)
Yes, as I said waaaay back on Page One:
“I knew about the study in Amsterdam on the hypothalamuses of deceased MtF transsexuals–they showed that both the size and the type of fibers were the same as in what Kelly calls ‘natal women’ . . . But it also showed that the brain of a MtF who had never taken female hormones was also a ‘female brain,’ indicating that hormone treatment was not repsonsible! It was a small study, but interesting.”
There have also been tests done on animals (don’t tell PETA!) that indicate the same thing.
How “visible” is an F-to-M reassignment? This is in reference to the inquiry about serving in the military. I mean, if you’re taking hormones and look very masculine, would anyone be able to tell that you were previously in a female body?
JerseyDiamond: I know a number of transgendered individuals who have served in the American Armed Forces.
The British military will even pay for reassignment of military personnel if medically indicated, and that serviceperson will remain on duty assuming that the surgery goes well. I don’t know about the American military, although I doubt it as Americans are far more unreasonable about transsexualism than Europeans are.
I am curious why you ask this question.
On the DES question, see this DES page. This summary cites three studies that have detected an association between DES exposure and transsexualism and intersexualism, although no causal link has been proven. The ability of various substances (e.g. DDT) to feminize animal fetuses is well-established; see, e.g. this article about transsexual frogs.
So, while there is no “proof” that transsexualism is caused by in utero exposure to feminizing agents such as DES or DDT, the evidence in favor is rather strong and the evidence against rather weak.
Guinastasia: I’ve always known vanilla to be reasonable. It’s the people like her, who are trying to understand, that I wish to reach. Perhaps I am somewhat on edge at this point in the thread.
In parenthetical response to gobear: I have never advocated dishonesty. I simply don’t believe that honesty requires full and immediate disclosure. Obviously others disagree. I believe that their arguments usually lack merit and are grounded not in a fundamental belief in honesty, but instead a deep and irrational fear of that which is different. The fact that they often must rely on strawmen to make their arguments is telling. Such people sadden me, even more so when I realize that they might pass that fear on to those around them, and especially their children.